Session Start: Wed Nov 03 11:21:00 1999
[11:21] * Logging #ICANN-LA to 'icann-la110399.log'
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<tommyg> hello all.
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<urgen> goodmorning
<JohnWilbanks> good morning...
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<anonymous> hi everyone
<tommyg> morning.
<anonymous> morning tommy
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<JohnWilbanks> hello from the tech table
<JohnWilbanks> we are about to get started in here
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<JohnWilbanks> but they're getting new chairs on the aid for the board
<MLangston> morning.
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<MLangston> Morning, Dennis.
<DennisSchaefer> Hi John, Mark et al.
<DennisSchaefer> Is the audio off right now?>
<MLangston> not on the secondary feed, no.
<DennisSchaefer> My stereo was off --- sorry
<MLangston> heh.
<MLangston> Computing before your morning coffee, Dennis?
<DennisSchaefer> Its my son's 'console'-- beats me how this stuff works.
<MLangston> ah.
<DennisSchaefer> Did you see the times article about the Merkle grants?
<MLangston> yep.
<MLangston> Did the Berkman feed just die, or get turned off?
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<DennisSchaefer> I still see/hear
<MLangston> hm.  secondary died.
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<MLangston> hm.  Seems the secondary feed's not working.
<PeteBowden> Greetings from the LA ICANN meeting :-)
<JohnWilbanks> check the secondary feed now
<JohnWilbanks> someone yanked the usb video fee
<JohnWilbanks> d
<PeteBowden> (I'm in the back of the room)
<MLangston> yep.  it's better.
<MLangston> :)
<MLangston> Thanks John.
<JohnWilbanks> hi pete, I'm the one with glasses by the mixer...
<JohnWilbanks> come by and say hey at a break
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<MLangston> a 'steady-state environment' is a completely static, dead state.
<PeteBowden> (she's getting quieter and further from the mic if the volume is dropping)
<JohnWilbanks> she's speaking so quietly it's hard to boost her without feedback
<JohnWilbanks> not much we can do
<PeteBowden> RFC793 :-)
<PeteBowden> I'll have to look that up
<JohnWilbanks> it's easier to hear this online than in the room
<PeteBowden> (I'm the guy using wireless in the back (to the left when looking from the front)
<urgen> excellent
<MarkBabiarz> Welcome to the United States of Canada
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<urgen> pile of rocks..
<MLangston> We'll stop throwing rocks when they start doing the right thing.
<DennisSchaefer> Democracy is so painful. No wonder it's only tried as a last resort.
<MLangston> ...many people without the technical knowledge to govern the internet...
<MLangston> Someone let me know when they're done patting each other on the back and get to substance.
<MarkBabiarz> It's about time they should stop and think....
<MarkBabiarz> I don't think Bill and the Democrats don't share the same view on all issues.
<PeteBowden> Nuclear Physics :-)
<MarkBabiarz> Warn us?
<MarkBabiarz> That's what he said!
<MarkBabiarz> I was questioning!
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<anonymous> hi everyone
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<MarkBabiarz> Hi anonymous
<DennisSchaefer> My screen went blank: musta missed a msg?
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<DennisSchaefer> John I sub'd a question, but obviously it can wait till appropriate.
* MarkBabiarz smiles at everyone in the room :-)
<urgen> scribe is still hanging out on Nov2?
<anonymous> Dennis, Mark - pls a fast update possible ?
<MarkBabiarz> Introducing new board members
<JohnWilbanks> questions will only go in during the public comment periods
<anonymous> thank you :)
<JohnWilbanks> which are listed on the agenda...
<MarkBabiarz> Thanks
<JohnWilbanks> I'm getting the scribe notes up
<JohnWilbanks> as we speak
<urgen> ok, sorry
<DennisSchaefer> Thanks, John.
<JohnWilbanks> scribe notes are current
<JohnWilbanks> if you're getting old notes
<JohnWilbanks> hit refresh
<urgen> yup
<MarkBabiarz> John can you summarize slide?
<JohnWilbanks> not really
<JohnWilbanks> am html'ing the slide
<JohnWilbanks> show
<JohnWilbanks> and trying to get this guy to speak into the microphone
<urgen> :-)
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<MikkiBarry> hi everyone.  I seem to be beseiged with technical difficulties on my end
<DennisSchaefer> Mikki, you've missed a touching morning
<anonymous> welcome mikki
<JohnWilbanks> slide show for ASO is up
<JohnWilbanks> and linked off the current agenda page
<JohnWilbanks> which is accessible off your broadcast page
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<JohnWilbanks> and the not speaking into the mic problem seems to be resolved...
<MarkBabiarz> thank you
<JohnWilbanks> hi mikki
<MikkiBarry> touching morning?
<anonymous> damn congestion
<JohnWilbanks> anonymous - you can set your name with the "/nick name"
<DennisSchaefer> Jon Postel's family gave awards to the Board:  rocks.
<JohnWilbanks> command, which will make you "name"
<JohnWilbanks> instead of anonymous
<JohnWilbanks> if that's what ya want, of course!
<MikkiBarry> I still can't get the feed due to technical difficulties here
<DennisSchaefer> Mikki -- you have no audio or video?
<JohnWilbanks> mikki - go for an audio feed
<JohnWilbanks> easier streaming
<MikkiBarry> the realplayer won't work on a G4 running 9.0 it seems
<PeteBowden> Deadlock = no consensus
<JohnWilbanks> huh
<JohnWilbanks> go for the instructions for users behind firewalls
<DennisSchaefer> The ASO is presenting an overview of its "agreement."
<JohnWilbanks> and see if you can stream http
<JohnWilbanks> we are on NC now
<MikkiBarry> I'll get another computer...back in a minute
<DennisSchaefer> And T. Swinehart
<MLangston> I'm back.
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<WardGoodwin> Howdy folks.  Arrived early but got busy and lost track of time.  I'm awake now...
<PeteBowden> Good ?morning?/day
<DennisSchaefer> Mark --  notice that Theresa didn't mention the criticisms received in public comment?
<MLangston> Yep.
<MLangston> No surprise there.
<MLangston> This is one big 'feel good about ourselves' meeting.
<PeteBowden> Wasn't it a totally "consensus" driven meeting :-)
<DennisSchaefer> In the NC portion, public comments were treated as an afterthought, because they ran out  of agenda and had 20 minutes to fill.  They laughed at some of them.
<PeteBowden> I'm sorry, I know, I was watching (from a remote location then) so I got to see that
<MLangston> That's perfectly fine.  If they want to be in the public eye, laughing at serious comments from participants, let them.
<MLangston> It's to their detriment.
<DennisSchaefer> Wouldn't that have made a great piece of evidence in a courtroom?
<MikkiBarry> yay..I'm back up
<MLangston> Yay Mikki!
<DennisSchaefer> Yo Mik...
<MikkiBarry> two computers, no waiting.  Bah humbug
<PeteBowden> We're going to be stuck with this one registrar for 8 years...  it's pretty much a given.
<MikkiBarry> you mean one registry?
<PeteBowden> No, I mean one specific registRAR (NSI)
<MikkiBarry> oh, ok.
<PeteBowden> There are plenty of acredited registries, heck, my company is acredited (which is news to me) so there will be many of those...  but at least for com/net/org it's locked in for the monopolist NSI
<PeteBowden> I just hate the fact that NSI is selling my mailing info
<MikkiBarry> I dislike that too, Pete
<PeteBowden> like they don't get enough money from their $35/year monopoly
<DennisSchaefer> Anyone know if NSI belongs to the Direct Mktg Assn?   If so, they are required to accept opt-outs.
<PeteBowden> NSI sells it to marketers, so I doubt it.
<urgen> So the main difficulty in arriving at an ICANN is that it is unprecidented and there is no where to look for a model to duplicate?
<urgen> that this is truely bootstrapping
<urgen> the same as a national government 
<PeteBowden> a national government with alot of international languages/cultures/people mixed in :-)
<urgen> or is that the dream/fantasy
<urgen> and it will proceed as a classic corporation
<urgen> we see occasional acknowledgements of the uniqueness of the situation but it doesn't seem to be the regular order of business
<MikkiBarry> Uh, is the at-large membership allowed to vote for directors?
<urgen> I can appreciate the do or die situation in finding a way for status quo to stand aside
<DennisSchaefer> Well, the idea of a world govt seems scarey -- let's make it a global business org instead.
<PeteBowden> either that or we really should be scared
<urgen> :-) scared only when the horse is too hard to handle
<MikkiBarry> we are already really scared
<urgen> but with proper stepping stone we don't even have to get our feet wet
<PeteBowden> There's 30 minutes in the afternoon for the 'report and recommendations' on the "NSI problem"
<PeteBowden> err...  ICANN/NSI/DOC Agreements
<MikkiBarry> you know....even if it was opened up tomorrow, I doubt that ICANN could withstand the influx of disputes, or the sheer volume of transacations
<PeteBowden> oh, there is an hour discussion period on registrar-related agreements...  that'll probably get heated up a bit
<MikkiBarry> That's kinda what you get when you have a dispute policy at all.  But ICANN wouldn't listen to that :-)
<JohnWilbanks> scribe notes are fresh, fyi
<MikkiBarry> thanks John
<JohnWilbanks> jun's presentation is linked off the agenda page
<JohnWilbanks> also fyi
<JohnWilbanks> so you can follow along
<MikkiBarry> I wonder why WIPO was allowed at the GAC meeting
<DennisSchaefer> They were listed as a 'govt'
<DennisSchaefer> in one speaker's list
<MikkiBarry> THat's likely to make it easier for the ITU to get in
<anonymous> i am not able to update domain details with nsi takes forever the customer service number has a weird message telling to call the same number. - is someone else having the same problem ? will it be appropriate to raiseit as a question ?
<PeteBowden> Only if you believe the problem to be systemic (I would think)
<DennisSchaefer> Telco's have service quality monitored.  It'd raise an interesting question: are customers being overlooked because the focus is on business?
<anonymous> been at it for last 45+ days.  can not reach customer service to clarify
<PeteBowden> Maybe all of NSI is here trying to stack the deck :-)
<MikkiBarry> LOL...NSI doesn't do that
<MikkiBarry> I have my differences with them, but they have always played by the rules
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<JohnWilbanks> public comment period #1 coming up
<JohnWilbanks> after kraajinbrink
<MikkiBarry> hint taken.  LOL
<JohnWilbanks> so get yours in if you wish...
<JohnWilbanks> oops, touton is on page 2 of my agenda
<JohnWilbanks> so it's after him
<JohnWilbanks> my bad
<JohnWilbanks> and let me know if you submit
<JohnWilbanks> so I can make sure and refresh my views
<JohnWilbanks> :-)
<MikkiBarry> I have submitted 2
<WardGoodwin> Have any real time substantive comments been  entered?  I haven't seen any yet...
<WardGoodwin> What lag time can we expect on submission to showing up on the web site?
<urgen> John has been doing an outstanding job
<MikkiBarry> Well gee Esther, if the domain name lawyers don't understand the UDRP, how can the users understand?
<WardGoodwin> Here here.  I totally agree.  To both comments...<G>
<MikkiBarry> go get em, ellen!!!
<PeteBowden> Hah.. consensus... so lets have it before the general meeting so that we don't know the consensus :-)
<DennisSchaefer> I'm on a working group ---  where's the consensus?
<PeteBowden> wow!  that was rather, ... flamable
<DennisSchaefer> Go Ellen!
<urgen> hehehe
<PeteBowden> almost wants me to go out and find what that book is that she mentioned
<PeteBowden> She's an author??  Domain Name <something>
<DennisSchaefer> The Domain Name Handbook
<MarkBabiarz> who was that lady?
<DennisSchaefer> Ellen Rony
<MarkBabiarz> thanks
<WardGoodwin> Don't you just love an answer that starts  'With all due respect'...  That's public-speak for 'You don't know what your talking about'.
<MikkiBarry> I am quite angry now
<MarkBabiarz> why?
<MikkiBarry> Because I am so tired of the blatent nonsense that the UDRP needed to be pushed through
<MikkiBarry> when the single most useful method of stopping "cybersquatters" is the creation of more gTLDs
<PeteBowden> Except that the board is supposed to decide that theire is PUBLIC consensus
<MikkiBarry> And I'm upset because there is no public consensus on the UDRP whatsoever, the comments that were submitted were largely ignored
<MarkBabiarz> No one could ever answer my questions on the comment board that I posted previously. I'm still waiting!
<MikkiBarry> And there was no representation for individuals
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<MarkBabiarz> Hear, Hear!
<WardGoodwin> Agreed.
<PeteBowden> and there will likely continue to be problems with individuals
<DennisSchaefer> Some day when members have a voice, it will be too late to do anything about what the first colonizers set up.
<MikkiBarry> and I still want to know what this possibly has to do with "technical management"
<PeteBowden> Dennis Scahefer's comment
<PeteBowden> err...  Mikki Barry (they changed)
<MarkBabiarz> That's the problem. they don't understand U.S. laws.
<MarkBabiarz> Go Dennis
<MarkBabiarz> Go Mikki
<WardGoodwin> Well if you have a policy then you have to deal with the consequences.  Which means you have to devote time and money to a problem you should have left to courts.
<WardGoodwin> Grin... INMNSHO that is...
<DennisSchaefer> The board legislated the agreement???????
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<PeteBowden> That's basically what they said
<MikkiBarry> oh, thanks
<MikkiBarry> how bloody nice of them
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<MikkiBarry> so the unelected board has not only decided that th epolicy is necessary, but the substantive parts of the policy
<JohnWilbanks> sorry - lost net there
<MikkiBarry> hi John
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<PeteBowden> The board made a resolution in Santiago which required the major points in the UDRP, and they then used that as their justification for its enactment later
<urgen> everything here looks ok john
<DennisSchaefer> Is a doctor in the house?  I need a separation-of-powers implant urgently!
<MikkiBarry> *sigh*  this is making me so ill
<DennisSchaefer> Wow!
<MikkiBarry> GO ERIC!
<PeteBowden> Chief Council's report from the SBA for openness and policies?? uh, I am not quite following
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<MikkiBarry> Hi Michael
<MarkBabiarz> Go Eric Go!
<MichaelFroomkin> "net congestion" here...
<DennisSchaefer> Hi Prof! You arrived at a dramatic moment.
<MikkiBarry> excellent job, Eric
<MarkBabiarz> I know they posted my messages out of sequence also Eric!
<DennisSchaefer> Is he going to arrest them?
<JohnWilbanks> out of sequence happens
<PeteBowden> Great!  it needs to be more open but what about all of the lack of openness or shortcomings to this point
<JohnWilbanks> trying to get comments in flow of topics
<JohnWilbanks> but it ain't easy
<urgen> :-)
<MikkiBarry> thanks for your efforts, John
<MarkBabiarz> happens because of audits!
<MikkiBarry> egads...Eric is going after them pretty hard
<MikkiBarry> so then they laugh?  I am so confused
<PeteBowden> ...comments that are ignored
<MikkiBarry> This doublespeak is quite annoying
<MichaelFroomkin> E.Dyson is arguing estoppel - if you aren't in on the ground floor, you are out of luck unless you are very quick.
<MikkiBarry> Unfortunately, the domain name holders can't claim estoppel as well :(
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<PeteBowden> White House dot com?
<JohnWilbanks> fyi - long lines at the mics
<JohnWilbanks> as well as multiple online comments
<JohnWilbanks> so be patiente
<MikkiBarry> I'm glad that Pindar will be looking into this.  He's a fair minded person
<DennisSchaefer> Thanks, John.
<JohnWilbanks> we'll get them in if we can
<MichaelFroomkin> I don't see any online comments at all - where are they?
<WardGoodwin> I see what I was doing wrong.  I was looking for comments in the 'current substantive comments' section instead of the prior meeting section... Uh..John...<G>
<PeteBowden> So, maybe the WhiteHouse.gov needs to go away because it violates so many different trademarks
<JohnWilbanks> you HAVE to mark your comments with the current period
<JohnWilbanks> or they dont show up as current
<MikkiBarry> LOL...all this assumes that the consumer is an idiot or that the consumer will be harmed by using a search engine
<urgen> heheheehehe
<JohnWilbanks> all comments must be marked public comment period 1  to show up
<MarkBabiarz> Let him speak!
<JohnWilbanks> as current
<WardGoodwin> I want the grapes.
<PeteBowden> did he say "sucks names"
<JohnWilbanks> he did indeed
<MikkiBarry> I try not to use that particular example :-)
<MarkBabiarz> Freedom of Speech!
<DennisSchaefer> Tarnishment!
<MikkiBarry> He's exactly right!
<MikkiBarry> the applause is wonderful!
<PeteBowden> Almost <...> ...  except ...
<PeteBowden> talk about consensus
<MarkBabiarz> ain't that the truth!
<DennisSchaefer> Is this Jon Cohen?
<MikkiBarry> Louis doesn't understand that the WORDS of the UDRP itself allow you to take the innocent domain name holder to binding arbitration based SOLELY on the "tarnishment" issue
<MichaelFroomkin> Clicking on current substantive comments ... no comments?
<MarkBabiarz> UDRP is too ambiguous. Why doesn't the words say that then!
<PeteBowden> hmm, gotta look to see if there is an icannsucks :-)
<MichaelFroomkin>  re:udrp - there is no way to stop frivolous claims except fines; fines are dangerous in this context
<MarkBabiarz> John did you get my questions?
<MikkiBarry> I have commented Michael and some have been read
<MichaelFroomkin> Why can't I see them?  Anyone else using Netscape having trouble?
<PeteBowden> there's already an icannsucks.com, .org, but .net is available
<MarkBabiarz> not anymore!
<JohnWilbanks> mark - yes
<MarkBabiarz> thanks
<JohnWilbanks> esther moved on us and we're trying to get her notebook
<JohnWilbanks> netmeetinged so she can see us
<JohnWilbanks> and talk to us re comments
<PeteBowden> I haven't seen an updated in the "online" notes - I can see them on the big screen here in LA.  Has there been a recent save?
<JohnWilbanks> yes, just update scribes
<JohnWilbanks> the backup of online comments
<JohnWilbanks> probably means we won't get to most of the recent ones
<JohnWilbanks> but the first ones in will go in I think
<MikkiBarry> superglue her to the chair
<JohnWilbanks> gonna be like being in the mic line when the period ends
<MikkiBarry> John...this was a problem in the last meeting.  Can you suggest that they should expand the meeting comment times?
<JohnWilbanks> we always do
<MikkiBarry> This is a significant problem given measuring consensus if not all are allowed to speak
<JohnWilbanks> but that also means a meeting that's remarkably long
<JohnWilbanks> and there are several other periods of comment this afternoon
<DennisSchaefer> Oh come on -- only one remote question????
<JohnWilbanks> so far
<JohnWilbanks> I just ran over to andrew and let him know
<JohnWilbanks> we had a bunch queued and ready
<DennisSchaefer> Tx, John.
<JohnWilbanks> I think mark's comment on udrp is up
<MikkiBarry> Yes, but none are long enough.  the backlog from the morning's questions will be likely ignored I'm afraid
<JohnWilbanks> for the next online one
<MikkiBarry> I realize that you guys at berkman are doing the best you can, and I appreciate your efforts
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<MikkiBarry> I definitely wish that the board would give us time
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<JohnWilbanks> dennis, your democracy gap one is next in the queue
<ErickIriarte> hi!! to all!!
<DennisSchaefer> Thanks, again,John.
<PeteBowden> Greetings
<DennisSchaefer> Hi Erick --  interesting meeting today.
<JohnWilbanks> honestly from the tech point of view
<MikkiBarry> it is NOT narrow!  All you have to do is infer tarnishment!
<JohnWilbanks> these comment periods make life much easier
<JohnWilbanks> but there is a legitimate conflict
<JohnWilbanks> between the mic lines
<JohnWilbanks> and the online comment queue
<JohnWilbanks> it's much easier to submit multiple comments online
<JohnWilbanks> than to get in line every time and wait a turn at the mic
<PeteBowden> And yes, thanks to all the technical people at the Berkman Center...
<JohnWilbanks> otoh, you can hold the mic
<JohnWilbanks> for more time than your comment takes to be read
<WardGoodwin> Grin
<JohnWilbanks> and do follow up
<MikkiBarry> If you are there, when you get to the mike, you can listen to all comments, and address all of them in turn
<MikkiBarry> and we don't get follow ups
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<MikkiBarry> Further, we don't get to corral the board for lunch or drinks
<ErickIriarte> i read the comments, and the "scribe's notes" is very interesting the meeting
<JohnWilbanks> would welcome comments on how to balance the two...
<JohnWilbanks> it's hard to do!
<baptista> mason just told me a business man from boston read out the last sentences of my email concering the bind1999 survey - anyone get a name.
<JohnWilbanks> joe - was the guy who buys the sucks names
<JohnWilbanks> I'll get the scribe notes refreshed
<PeteBowden> ... what is the "bind1999 survey"
<JohnWilbanks> and the name will be in there
<baptista> what are sucks names?
<MikkiBarry> It is hard to do, John.  But I would maintain that the online comments should all be read unless/until it gets excessive i.e. one person posting 10+ long comments
<PeteBowden> oh, whitehouse.com guy
<JohnWilbanks> microsoftsucks.com, etc.
<PeteBowden> or as Esther says, "the sucks guy" ;-)
<baptista> ok pete - thank you
<baptista> i'll scan the scribe notes for sucks?  Yes?
<JohnWilbanks> joe - it's parisi (last name)
<baptista> thank you john.
<JohnWilbanks> scribe notes are fresh as of now
<MichaelFroomkin> Has anyone asked why the Bd. rushed to decision on udp before the elections?
<baptista> thank you john
<JohnWilbanks> joe - no worries...
<JohnWilbanks> michael - ellen rony asked that question
<JohnWilbanks> at the beginning of the comment period
<MichaelFroomkin> & what was the answer?
<JohnWilbanks> scan scribe for it
<MichaelFroomkin> ok
<JohnWilbanks> sorry to all
<JohnWilbanks> if I take a while to respond sometimes
<JohnWilbanks> am multitasking hard right now
<baptista> looks good - more success then i expected.  Over 60,000 emails out - lots of fans 10,000 bind requests processes.  Soon the world will be a safer place and ICANN's dealing will finally receive world wide attention.  GOOD ;-)
<PeteBowden> (Scan for "Rony" -- under section "V.  Public Comments"
<MikkiBarry> the first person whose comments could be shortened is amadeu :-)
<baptista> everything amadeu says could be shortened in every way.  He would drive neitzche crazy
<MikkiBarry> I wonder how much they  understand that these dynamic new businesses would be crushed by the UDRP
<urgen> board is getting gunshy
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<DennisSchaefer> Anyone:  why is an executive branch agency doing this so openly?  Isn't this unusual?
<MikkiBarry> yes
<MikkiBarry> However, remember that an executive branch agency started this whole thing
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<PeteBowden> Go Auerbach
<DennisSchaefer> Hi Joop -- have you been following this?
<JoopTeernstra> No, just joined afre a power cut here.
<WardGoodwin> And as legitimate owners of those domain names...
<JoopTeernstra> Who was the speaker just before Karl?
<JohnWilbanks> someone from the sba
<DennisSchaefer> Small Business Administration guy (1 of 2)
<baptista> anyone noticed the mafia showed up yesturday ?  those tridel people.
<PeteBowden> Just about every name is trademarked SOMEPLACE by SOME type of business
<JoopTeernstra> Good input.
<MikkiBarry> so are many common English words.  Yet they are trademarked by multiple people
<MikkiBarry> part of the problem is that there is only one .com.  If there were MANY .com like gTLDs, the problem would be far less
<WardGoodwin> Perhaps someone should mention that part of the 'trademark' is use.   Again...
<baptista> jon cohen probably told them to monitor - in their best interests
<PeteBowden> oh please...  my wife and son are individuals and they're related to me therefore they participated :-)
<JoopTeernstra> Bob Connelly is the sole IDNO supporter among CORE registrars. I had very good contact with him in Berlin
<PeteBowden> Chanel?sp
<DennisSchaefer> Yes
<WardGoodwin> Oh boy...<G>
<MikkiBarry> Our voices were NOT heard on the UDRP!
<MarkBabiarz> They're wanting publicity aren't they?
<MikkiBarry> We provided comments yet they were IGNORED
<MikkiBarry> sheesh
<PeteBowden> so any individual is subject to any business wanting to steal their name
<JohnWilbanks> just ran a bunch of online comments over to esther
<PeteBowden> I doubt if there were more gTLD's that it would be much different.  The trademark people would be wanting to deny the name in ALL TLDs
<MikkiBarry> gee, famous mark nonsense yet again
<WardGoodwin> Here's a question... If some company takes you to the mediator mat.   Who pays the cost of showing up.  Or can you show up electronicly?
<baptista> i've always told the idno the bottom line must be membership - membership - membership - the udrp is a friend to leverage - but only if you have the numbers and members to be s force.  Thus far i'm disappointed with all the rukus in the idno.
<MikkiBarry> They pay if it's only a one person panel
<JohnWilbanks> there you go, y'all
<MikkiBarry> If you want more than one person, you have to pay 1/2
<DennisSchaefer> Geesh -- she didn't relay my question accurately!
<MarkBabiarz> Go Dennis
<anonymous> atleast she read it
<JohnWilbanks> we put the fulltext on the screen
<anonymous> mine did not seem to have made it to the comments board
<JohnWilbanks> which one is yours?
<MikkiBarry> *sigh*  none of our comments were even incorporated
<ErickIriarte> somebody knows if the UDRP is used in some case in this moment?? or similar principles ?? in arbitration solution's??
<WardGoodwin> Another point.   If you lose.  Can you go to the courts?  If so does icann enforce the court or the mediator (if diff of course)?
<PeteBowden> hmm, I'm nosey... wonder what Esther walked over to the Berkman Technical people for :-)
<JohnWilbanks> we're trying to work out the best way to get the comments in
<DennisSchaefer> It's not in use yet, Erick.
<ErickIriarte> yes i know that
<DennisSchaefer> John -- thanks for that info.
<MarkBabiarz> ICANN can't enforce the courts. In fact UDRP needs to be tested in the courts!
<PeteBowden> Thanks
<ErickIriarte> by some institution use the principles of this UDRP to resolve some case??
<MarkBabiarz> That may make all this senseless!
<ErickIriarte> yes..
<JohnWilbanks> btw, between the early start of the comment period
<JohnWilbanks> and the acceptance of these comments
<WardGoodwin> Not what I meant.  Which has precidence.  A court ruling or a mediator's decision?
<JohnWilbanks> we have a de facto longer comment period for the public...
<ErickIriarte> some of one?
<MarkBabiarz> Court can always over rule!
<PeteBowden> Dennis!
<WardGoodwin> Tell that to the us irs....
<PeteBowden> (you're being read Dennis)
<ErickIriarte> i think is possible that some arbitration (or mediation) case, resolve with principles of the UDRP
<JohnWilbanks> ok, comment period over
<MikkiBarry> How the hell can we show a consensus when ICANN refuses to tell us how THEY reach consensus?
<ErickIriarte> and another question: somebody use the principles of UDRP (o something similar) to resolve some case (in the court or arbitration) and win?
<JohnWilbanks> if you submit more comments, make sure to tag them
<JohnWilbanks> with the appropriate meeting section
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<JohnWilbanks> if you want them to show up
<JohnWilbanks> as current
<DennisSchaefer> How'd that follow-up happen, John?
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<WardGoodwin> John.  How do you properly tag them?
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<JohnWilbanks> it's on the comment submission form
<JohnWilbanks> a drop-down menu
<JohnWilbanks> which tages them for our database
<JohnWilbanks> and shows them as current
<JohnWilbanks> otherwise they show as substantive on the link below the current link
<JohnWilbanks> on the broadcast page
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<anonymous> john my comments are not getting thru
<ErickIriarte> again
<PeteBowden> Maybe they don't like anonymous comments
<ErickIriarte> i just send my position!!
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<anonymous> its not anonymous
<WardGoodwin> Ah... I see the drop box.   Ok I had assumed that was the subject... My Bad...<G>
<JohnWilbanks> yes, you have to attach your name to a comment
<JohnWilbanks> for it to come through
<ErickIriarte> i have problems to write fast in english.. because is not my mother language
<anonymous> i did
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<JohnWilbanks> ok, yours just showed up on my screen
<JohnWilbanks> we are going to clear the stack of comments (they will remain archived and public)
<JohnWilbanks> to get ready for the next round of public comment
<ErickIriarte> ok
<ErickIriarte> thanks
<JohnWilbanks> and we'll try to make it smoother getting them in
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<WardGoodwin> Thanks, John.  We do appreciate your efforts and sypathize with your position...
<JohnWilbanks> Just so you know - they will be marked read
<JohnWilbanks> for my convenience in managing the tech
<JohnWilbanks> I will recitfy anything falsely marked as read
<JohnWilbanks> after the meeting
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<JohnWilbanks> though it did help when esther read through the comments
<JohnWilbanks> :-)
<MikkiBarry> Uncle Mike just told them!  :-)
<MikkiBarry> yes, it helped :-)
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<studentx> "funders in the internet community..."-meaning who ?
<WardGoodwin> Anyone considered a nice shotgun mike paired with the camera?  Especially for those who are afraid of the mic...
<JohnWilbanks> erick - yours came in too late for reading
<JohnWilbanks> will be archived and public and I will correct the reading notation
<ErickIriarte> ok john
<JohnWilbanks> at the break
<ErickIriarte> the problem is
<ErickIriarte> the marked..
<JohnWilbanks> would recommend to each of you
<ErickIriarte> ok i understand
<JohnWilbanks> to get your comments ready for the beginning of the comment periods
<JohnWilbanks> as you fall into the back of the virtual line
<ErickIriarte> ok
<JohnWilbanks> when you submit during the period
<WardGoodwin> Anyone have any idea on how to do the occasional followup?...
<JohnWilbanks> also, try to make one comment per person per period
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<MikkiBarry> I'm wondering if now that ICANN has permanently hired Louis Touton, whether or not the law firm will get less money
<JohnWilbanks> again, I have marked comments read that were not necessarily read
<studentx> profit and not-for profit should pay equally under what principal ?
<JohnWilbanks> and will fix that later
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<JohnWilbanks> it makes my status checks much easier
<MikkiBarry> *sigh*  I guess that means that groups like DNRC get left behind once again
<JohnWilbanks> hey hilary...
<WardGoodwin> What happens to the comments that are submitted outside the public comment heading?  Just archived?  Or can someone respond?
<JohnWilbanks> all comments are archived, but will only be used inmeeting during comment periods
<JohnWilbanks> would recommend making your comment count in one send
<JohnWilbanks> as it seems to be hard to get more than that in
<BenEdelman> Hello all.
<karls> hi JW
<anonymous> hi Ben
<BenEdelman> We're getting ready for the next public comment period...
<WardGoodwin> We could always collaborate here and those not wanting a question could forward someone elses...
<anonymous> karl is that karl Auerbach ?
<BenEdelman> ... and are going to need to enforce the "one comment per person per agenda item" rule.
<BenEdelman> I know it's no fun, but it reflects the social norms taking place at the microphone.
<karls> no.  Karls is my last name
<anonymous> ben i submitted one in last round
<anonymous> can i submit another now ?
<anonymous> sorry karls thanks
<anonymous> hi joop
<MikkiBarry> I got an error in trying to post, John
<MikkiBarry> Microsoft OLE DB Provider for ODBC Drivers error '80040e21' Errors occurred /scripts/dbpostacceptor.asp, line 53
<BenEdelman> And since we're attempting to stick with first-in-first-read as a no-filtering policy (subject to the constraint that "stale" comments won't be read just as Esther might remind someone that a particular topic just isn't ripe to be discsussd at the time)
<BenEdelman> we just can't have multiple comments from a single person on a single agenda item.
<MikkiBarry> and the comment went away.  *sigh*
<BenEdelman> Did you leave one of the fields empty?
<MikkiBarry> why not, Ben?  there are multiple comments from a single person on the microphone
<MikkiBarry> the subject was empty
<BenEdelman> (You shouldn't... but it should give you an error message, not a crash like that.)
<MikkiBarry> oh wait...no it wasn't
<BenEdelman> (Hrm.  OK, let me try to look into that.
<BenEdelman> In the meanwhile, don't make the subject blank!  It's a helpful field -- use it!)
<MikkiBarry> did it come through at all?  it was under "report and recommendations"
<BenEdelman> Why not?  I attempted to give reasons in my initial statement of the rule.  Not clear?
<BenEdelman> If db errors occurred in the ASP, then the comment didn't make it here.
<JohnWilbanks> scribe  notes are fresh, fyi
<MikkiBarry> Why not because we should have parity with people who are actually at the meeting
<BenEdelman> To be absolutely safe, you might write your comments in Notepad or some such and then copy and paste into your browser.
<BenEdelman> Some people speak more than once at the mic.
<BenEdelman> But no one speaks three or four times in a single half-hour comment session.  It just doesn't happen.  No one more than twice, I don't believe.
<BenEdelman> And Esther says she's going to enforce "one comment per person per comment period"
<MikkiBarry> They speak for far longer than any of our comments have been
<BenEdelman> You're right, Mikki.  But then again realize that your comments are displayed on screen...
<MikkiBarry> oh, so guess we should listen to the whole thing and put all the comments together in one big long package?
<BenEdelman> ... and archived on the web in searchable text form.
<BenEdelman> I know, it's a problem.  If you have a proposal that you think better balances all the competing interests, I'm open to it.
<MikkiBarry> It's not quite the same thing as participating.
<WardGoodwin> The largest advantage is the prospect of a followup response...
<MikkiBarry> impose a total word count per comment period
<BenEdelman> The burden on our staff in processing messages is per-message not per-word.  So the per-word limit is to keep messages short (so they can be displayed on a single screen).
<anonymous> ben its not fair
<anonymous> mikki is right
<BenEdelman> The one message per person limit is to assure that everyone has a chance to say something.
<BenEdelman> Which is better: A world where one online participants gets to say a lot...
<BenEdelman> ... or where several get to say relatively less each?
<anonymous> might end up saying something inadequate
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<MikkiBarry> Ben - those who are there have significant advantage over us
<MikkiBarry> they get to speak to people directly during breaks, lunches, dinners, etc.
<BenEdelman> Yes, that's a reasonable worry.  If the per-message limit were ridiculously low -- ten words per message, say! -- that'd be convincing.  But I think most points can be made in the space allotted.
<MikkiBarry> their words are not lost in database problems :-)
<MikkiBarry> they get follow up questions, etc.
<MikkiBarry> We should be afforded at least equal opportunity even though we couldn't afford to fly to LA
<JohnWilbanks> mikki - remote tech can't change rela world fact
<MikkiBarry> that is part of the idea of "internet governance"  Use the Internet for comments :-)
<JohnWilbanks> face-to-face works better for talking during lunch
<MikkiBarry> The point, John, is that an arbitrary limit of one comment per online person per comment period is not fair
<JohnWilbanks> and nothing we do will change that
<BenEdelman> For the record, no one reported the database problem to me in Santiago or in the prior three days of webcast.  I would have fixed it if someone had.  Maybe you're the first person to fail to enter a subject for your message?  My email address is readily accessible throughout the site, I believe, if there are problems I need to know about.
<MikkiBarry> Not that we aren't there...just that our words from HERE should be afforded at least equal weight
<JohnWilbanks> my point is that as a member of the small pool
<JohnWilbanks> of online participants
<JohnWilbanks> you actually get more comment weight
<JohnWilbanks> than most folks in the room
<JohnWilbanks> as well as being part of the permanent archive
<JohnWilbanks> instead of one of 300
<JohnWilbanks> in line for the microphone.
<JohnWilbanks> and assuring that all members of the small pool
<JohnWilbanks> have equal weight
<MikkiBarry> then we're stuck with waiting til the very end and then sending one very long message.  If that's what is best for you, then fine
<JohnWilbanks> is of importance to us
<JohnWilbanks> no, you can look at the agenda
<JohnWilbanks> and form a long comment on each item
<JohnWilbanks> ahead of time
<JohnWilbanks> and send it in ahead of time
<MikkiBarry> That doesn't help address comments that are being made
<JohnWilbanks> and we'll get it into the queue when that item gets discussed
<MikkiBarry> this participation was touted as "real time participation" not "submit comments first"
<JohnWilbanks> if you have a better idea mikki, we are again open to it
<MikkiBarry> I made a suggestion for total word count
<JohnWilbanks> but no one, I repeat NO ONE, has offered anything to balance
<JohnWilbanks> inroom versus online
<JohnWilbanks> that is remotely more effective than this.
<JohnWilbanks> word count limits receive the same
<JohnWilbanks> arguments against them that you make against the one-comment limit
<JohnWilbanks> and we can enforce one-comment
<paulds> give laptops to everyone in the room and make them submit their comments via the web too. :)
<MikkiBarry> I disagree if the word count is large enough
<JohnWilbanks> inroom on the mics
<paulds> <just kidding>
<JohnWilbanks> in a way that we can't enforce word limit
<JohnWilbanks> inroom on the mics
<JohnWilbanks> this way you get the same on-comment right
<JohnWilbanks> as the inroom talkers
<JohnWilbanks> and follow up stinks, I grant.
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<JohnWilbanks> but that's a problem we can't fix yet.
<MikkiBarry> then we should be allowed more comments as long as they are short
<JohnWilbanks> we actually do have inroom desktops set up
<JohnWilbanks> we're back to square one, mikki.
<JohnWilbanks> if that's your stance.
<JohnWilbanks> I respect your points and see the vailidity
<WardGoodwin> Perhaps a clearly projected realtime comments section in the room that is legible to everyone there might help.  One of those large whiteboards perhaps...
<MikkiBarry> I made a suggestion, you told me it wasn't possible
<JohnWilbanks> but it's just not workable.
<JohnWilbanks> with the current tech.
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<MikkiBarry> then give each of us 3 short comments per comment period
<JohnWilbanks> and handle them how?  no sarcasm there, would love to know.
<JohnWilbanks> and how to handle complaints of inroom participants who are allowed only one comment?
<JohnWilbanks> and claim unfairness as you now do?
<MikkiBarry> The in room participants have far more opportunity than we do
<MikkiBarry> this would be a balance
<JohnWilbanks> is there to be no benefit for making the effort to attend physically?
<JohnWilbanks> I believe that's a legitimate question.
<JohnWilbanks> and until MOO/MUD actually works
<JohnWilbanks> I don't see this being resolved to anyone's satisfaction, including ours.
<JohnWilbanks> Would love to convene an informal group of folks
<WardGoodwin> How about a stiff division of the time used by inroom questions and those read from online...
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<JohnWilbanks> to do bluesky thinking on making this work
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<JohnWilbanks> send email to wilbanks@law.harvard.edu if interested in participating.
<MikkiBarry> john, in a perfect world, there would BE no in person meetings
<JohnWilbanks> well taken.
<MikkiBarry> all of this should be conducted over the medium that they seek to govern
<JohnWilbanks> but this isn't a perfect world yet
<MikkiBarry> correct...but this is one step :-)
<JohnWilbanks> and the medium can't handle it well enough yet IMHO
<Nancy> I disagree with the perfect world theory here.  There is value in face-to-face communication.
<MikkiBarry> and not a very painful one either
<JohnWilbanks> to go truly virtual
<JohnWilbanks> trust me, would rather not have made this trip
<JohnWilbanks> away from family and home
<JohnWilbanks> working 15-hour days
<MikkiBarry> but should the meetings be decided solely by those who can afford the time/money to follow ICANN all over the world?
<MikkiBarry> Should those people have "more say" than the rest of us who are affected?
<JohnWilbanks> not the only factor.
<JohnWilbanks> is easy for us to complain about chile, for example
<Nancy> No, but there is value in being there as well.  There must be a way to strike a balance.
<JohnWilbanks> all:  must leave for a while and get back to the work here!
<JohnWilbanks> interesting discussion tho.
<JohnWilbanks> will return to it.
<WardGoodwin> Have fun John...
<MikkiBarry> and balance is what I have suggested by giving us 3 comments each.  Perhaps read together at the end of the comment period
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<Nancy> A good idea.  It may be worth considering a live aspect for the person whose comment is
<Nancy> being ready so that they can ask follow up questions.
<Nancy> Live chat that is
<MikkiBarry> that makes good sense :-)
<WardGoodwin> Grin... I've seen em do it on cnn talkback live...<G>
<MikkiBarry> it'd take more funding I think than berkman has right now
<MikkiBarry> Maybe NSI should pay for it.  :-)
<BenEdelman> One thing I'd like to try for next time is letting users edit and even withdraw comments after posting them.
<WardGoodwin> Put this chat board on a large whiteboard in the room.  Visible and legible to all.
<BenEdelman> Shouldn't be "that" hard to code...
<JohnWilbanks> scribe notes are fresh, back again for talk soon
<ErickIriarte> maybe.. mikki.. maybe NSI is interesting
<BenEdelman> ... nor much burden on our staff sinc ethee the web server would do the work.
<DennisSchaefer> John -- does Public COmment Period 2 permit non-funding questions to be raised?
<JohnWilbanks> not sure
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<JohnWilbanks> will find out tho
<Nancy> Good idea, Ben.  Who executes that?
<BenEdelman> Would address what Mikki is concerned about -- she could add her comments together so long as the total comment wsa less than the word limit.
<WardGoodwin> Darn... I stuck with the subject...<G>
<BenEdelman> Who executes it?  I sit down and code it sometime between now and then (assuming ICANN asks us to do this at their next meeting, assuming we accept, etc.)
<BenEdelman> and then I test it and others help test it and presumably it works properly.
<BenEdelman> I am a little concerned about making the remote comment system more complicated.
<Nancy> Ah.. in your free time!
<BenEdelman> (For I want it to remain as approachable as possible to my grandmothre and all others who don't have much tech experience.  Certainly don't want novices at using the web to be blocked from remote participation.  But I should be able to make it easy enough with a bit of thought as to the UI.)
<JohnWilbanks> looks to be funding issue comments only
<WardGoodwin> I've heard of that 'free time stuff'.   Where do you download that from...
<DennisSchaefer> Thanks, John
<JohnWilbanks> I'm waiting for freetime 2.0
<JohnWilbanks> personally
<JohnWilbanks> ward, we have your comment prepped
<WardGoodwin> Thanks.  I appreciate it.
<ErickIriarte> how do you say when a group economic control a country? in spanish is plutocracia
<ErickIriarte> in english!
<ErickIriarte> to send my opinion.
<WardGoodwin> Plutocracy I think
<WardGoodwin> off the cuff guess...
<ErickIriarte> is understand plutocracy like a group economic control a country?
<WardGoodwin> Yep.  Just checked.
<ErickIriarte> ok
<WardGoodwin> I must recomend http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary
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<WardGoodwin> I do appreciate the humor in suggesting a dictonary with a spelling error...<G>
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<anonymous> Ben do the questions for this comment period have to relate to funding only ?
<anonymous> who is be responding to the comments
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<ErickIriarte> i send my comment
<WardGoodwin> Nutz.   I hate a moving target for a fee...
<JohnWilbanks> these are funding comments for this period
<JohnWilbanks> erick - hasn't come through yet
<ErickIriarte> hi
<JohnWilbanks> but am watching for it
<ErickIriarte> when a i send a commentary , the web page say: Microsoft OLE DB Provider for ODBC Drivers error '80040e21'
<paulds> I hate the whole marketization of the domain name system...
<ErickIriarte> what happend?
<paulds> It's totally artificial.
<WardGoodwin> Introducing the everpopular WinXX fix.  Reboot.
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<ErickIriarte> my question is: Is possible that future of ICANN is make a plutocracy? Because it seems we walk to this way. And this is not a good way.
<paulds> It could be a virtually unlimited resource, run at very little cost to anyone. :/
<WardGoodwin> That can be said for every info-market.
<ericrosen> who is this dude ?
<MarkBabiarz> I thought there must be a treaty before a tax....er fee be imposed.
<JohnWilbanks> his name is o'brien, from .nz
<WardGoodwin> You don't have to have a domain.  Take your cardboard box and find a steam vent.
<paulds> The thing is, for the *vast* majority of the existence of the DNS, it *was* thought of and run that way.
<paulds> Then NSI twisted their contract into a granted fiefdom.
<ErickIriarte> ...
<MikkiBarry> part of that was ICANN's realization that it couldn't pick up the slack if NSI went awy tomororw
<WardGoodwin> Well it wouldn't be the first time the internet had an attempted hijacking...
<MikkiBarry> LOL true
<paulds> It just irritates me that this whole discussion is going on based on some bizarre underlying assumption that domain names are some scarce commodity that needs to be dealt with in a "market" fashion.
<ErickIriarte> a question: haw define hijacking?? this a big question to start any discution around this point
<ErickIriarte> a question: how define hijacking?? this a big question to start any discution around this point
<MikkiBarry> you definitely have a point there, paulds.  i believe that if there were more gtlds, many of these "problems" would suddenly lessen dramatically
<karls> i'm not sure that it is domanin names in general rather than specific domain names.
<WardGoodwin> Scarce or not there should be a accomadation to the fact that they ARE commodities.
<paulds> 'zactly, Mikki.
<karls> yet, how many new gTLDs would you add, 
<paulds> the artificially created scarcity of 2nd-level names is based on the artificially created scarcity of TLDs.
<karls> and how would you administrate them in fairness?
<paulds> Add THEM ALL!
<paulds> There is no technical reason to have ANY limit
<WardGoodwin> Over teh past decade or two there have been several attempts to gain control over the internet.  So far unsuccessful...
<MikkiBarry> beef up the search engines, make them easier to deal with for the new users, and let fly the gtlds :-)
<paulds> the central registries could easily accomodate an unlimited number of TLDs, even up to 5 characters or more
<MikkiBarry> I again make my claim for the gTLD .DUH
<MikkiBarry> I want .DUH
<DennisSchaefer> Domain names will always be scarce to the extent that only one person can hold it.   More TLD's just means more names and more demand.
<karls> if you add many new gTLDs, everyone will want their own, and then we'll have billions...
<paulds> especially if we finally got the .com/net/org *secondary* domains out of the root servers and offloaded elsewhere.
<MikkiBarry> and that is bad in what way, karls?
<karls> who wants to manage that list... 
<paulds> nah, there;s no reason to allow private TLDs
<paulds> dont have any now.
<paulds> TLDs could be unlimited in number, but anyone can register secondary names in any TLD they want.
<karls> true, but people will claim their own if given the chance.
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<paulds> The namespace is a virtually unliimited resource.  It's time the registrars and registries realized they don't *own* any of it, and have merely been granted permission to run portions of it for the benefit of the Internet.
<JohnWilbanks> scribe notes are fresh
<paulds> don't give them the chance then.  No reason to create provision for private TLD ownership
<urgen> unless you're like me and have a garage full of old computers that ALL want to be on the net.. I'd need a TLD just to map them all  ;-)
<paulds> thats why we have a hierarchical namespace. :)
<paulds> Even if there was an arbitrary 5-character limit on TLDs, and if it was limited to A-Z only, there'd still be a max of 26^5 = ~11 million TLDs.
<paulds> Microsoft would be welcome to register microsoft.xxxxx in all of them if they felt like it. :)
<WardGoodwin> Is there a cap on the number of registrar's?
<WardGoodwin> That's my followup...
<ErickIriarte> but not only microsoft, register msn, window, outlook.. and all the trademarks that microsoft have
<paulds> sure, if they want to.  more power to them.
<paulds> they'd end up funding the whole damn system for the rest of us. :)
<MikkiBarry> If all domain name registrations were governed by the laws of the country in which the registrar is located, and had to end in an
<MikkiBarry> identifying ccTLD, and all gTLDs were eliminated, that would take care of the problem as well
<MikkiBarry> Either no gTLDs or unlimited gTLDs
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<paulds> well, that would take care of *some* trademark problems, but certainly not all
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<MikkiBarry> from a logistical standpoint, that would deal with most of the issues
<paulds> in the US, for example, trademarks are not nation-wide, but specific to one of the 50 States...
<MikkiBarry> further, if corporations were limited to ONE domain name, and they could create as many third level domains as they wished
<MikkiBarry> that would ALSO take care of a lot of it
<paulds> yeah well.
<MikkiBarry> windows.microsoft.com, badmovie.paramount.com
<paulds> hard to implement stuff like that retroactively, unfortunately. :/
<ErickIriarte> yes
<ErickIriarte> is a good point
<paulds> adding new TLDs is trivially easy
<ErickIriarte> you have tha more famnouse mark like domain name, and all your trademarks in third level..
<MikkiBarry> hell why, paulds?  We already have NSI and ICANN retroactively implementing dispute policies :-)
<paulds> hah
<urgen> :-)
<MikkiBarry> If the trademark lobby TRULY wanted to deal with these issues, that's what they'd do
<MikkiBarry> But the attorneys don't understand the logistics of the Internet very well, and they are paid to be unleashed pit bulls
<JohnWilbanks> scribe is fresh
<paulds> yeah, but as a sysadmin, I can say fer sure it'd be damn hard for ICANN to try to get into my server room and change my hosts' names without my agreement. :)
<ErickIriarte> sorry
<paulds> Lawyers can always push around other lawyers. :)
<MikkiBarry> <--lawyer who gets pushed around a lot :-)
<paulds> haha
<paulds> very good points though, Mikki
<MikkiBarry> thank you paul :-)
<anonymous> Ben this one comment is getting tough
<DennisSchaefer> John -- I sent another one
<anonymous> they answered half the question and ignored the rest and now will be marked as responeded to
<JohnWilbanks> will be marked as read, sri
<MikkiBarry> With people like Marilyn Cade saying that Bell Atlantic should control ALL domain names with the word "bell" in it, it is very unlikely that they will let go of that silly notion that corporations should control common English words
<JohnWilbanks> very different
<WardGoodwin> They can with the help of the courts push around the fellows that carry guns in all places us... Namely the police.  Knock.. Knock.  You have to change those names.  NOW!..<G>
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<paulds> Fortunately the Boston police are all busy guarding street construction sites. :)
<WardGoodwin> Grin... Not a chance that my followup will be read is there.   I wrote it on here...<G>
<ErickIriarte> if i have the word: chiste, don't mean anything in english, but in spanish mean "some phrase fun" (a joke). If a register my domain name in a non-spanish country is possible, until "chiste" is a generic word.
<ErickIriarte> dennis your question is very, very good.
<JoopTeernstra> Ben, I have a problem submitting my public contribution. I get this message:Microsoft OLE DB Provider for ODBC Drivers error '80040e21'
<anonymous> joop i think u have put something in subject line
<MikkiBarry> yes, that is an excellent question :-)
<MikkiBarry> are you on a mac, joop?
<JoopTeernstra> Am I supposed to leave the subject line blamnlk?
<anonymous> not blank - u have to fill it
<anonymous> dennis go !
<WardGoodwin> Nutz...
<MikkiBarry> help!!!  the camera ismaking me seasick :-)
<ErickIriarte> reload the page.. and then send the comment
<anonymous> geez thanks!
<ErickIriarte> i have the same problem.. few minutes ago
<WardGoodwin> 4:30 any topic...G
<MikkiBarry> hey!  that was a budget question!!
<DennisSchaefer> I think that was Sarah Deutch, Mikki
<anonymous> who was that from Ralph group ?
<JoopTeernstra> I filled it , but I still got the error
<MikkiBarry> nader's person is here too...cool :-)
<anonymous> i like her - she has guts !
<MikkiBarry> excellent :-)
<paulds> how long is the break?
<MikkiBarry> damn, I hope it's long enough for me to get a shower :-)
<anonymous> i have a bit of relief that i got that response from ralph group
<anonymous> :)
<anonymous> yuk mikki !
<anonymous> :)
<DennisSchaefer> Thanks Erick --  it didn't impress them much, tho!
<tommyg> hour break.
<ErickIriarte> :)
<paulds> k thanks
<MikkiBarry> <--is the MCI telecommuting commercial :-)
<JoopTeernstra> Does anyone know how much Ralph's group got?
<anonymous> ..lol..
<anonymous> around 200k i think
<JoopTeernstra> Thanks.
<MikkiBarry> so when does DNRC get money? :-)
<JoopTeernstra> And what about the idno?
<anonymous> u have to scream loud in papers i guess -
<anonymous> they still have half mil to spend
<MikkiBarry> we're older...me first :-)
<JoopTeernstra> Did the DNRC actually ask Markle? I did and got fobbed off.
<MikkiBarry> Harold is in charge of that part
<anonymous> joop you should actually get them to pay you for travel
<anonymous>  they did it for non comm people i hear
<paulds> "they" who?
<paulds> the Board?
<JoopTeernstra> they listen to what ICANN (Esther) suggests, it seems.
<anonymous> hmm...
<JoopTeernstra> they means Markle
<anonymous> i am sorry correction on my part
<anonymous> 200k for icann
<anonymous> don't have figures for jimmy carterr
<anonymous> and ralph
<WardGoodwin> 300K
<WardGoodwin> For Carter is what I think I read.
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<anonymous> if Merkle listens to Esther what sense does it make to spend money for democracy ?
<anonymous> or is it one more PR whitewash by ICANN
<PeteBowden> Jeesh, I guess I shouldn't have left for lunch when I did, but I was hungry and it was (I thought) out of the public comment period
<JoopTeernstra> It could all be a smokescreen. They know that we are the only real bottom -up democracy effort and they have ignored our request for funding, even for a single plane ticket to LA.
<anonymous> interesting
<JoopTeernstra> They came to Santiago fully briefed and they knew exactly what the issues were.
<MikkiBarry> *sigh*
<anonymous> how much time do we have before they start again >
<PeteBowden> supposedly 25 minutes
<JoopTeernstra> for me Markle has lost credibility, unless I would get an email fdrom Andrew Shapiro in the next few days.
<anonymous> is anyone from their side at the meet ?
<PeteBowden> From who's side?
<JoopTeernstra> Yes, I though there was a lady who spoke briefly. I also saw them on the attendance list.
<JoopTeernstra> Markle
<anonymous> maybe we should have ask a question to that end
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<PeteBowden> Okay, I wasn't here -- what is "Markle's" position (or who)
<JoopTeernstra> I don't know if the Markle Foundation is available for questions
<anonymous> we can ask esther if she had some direction in markle fund distribution ?
<paulds> a few details:
<paulds> http://www.nytimes.com/library/tech/99/11/cyber/articles/03icann.html
<JoopTeernstra> Hah! And Esther would say , yes sure..:-)
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<anonymous> never hurts to ask
<anonymous> just to get the point out
<anonymous> after all this is all part of some record
<anonymous> for a later day digging by some commission if need be :)
<JoopTeernstra> Well, someone would have to phrase it very diplomatically. If the IDNO would ask, it might be counterproductive.
<anonymous> i understand
<paulds> Any Berkman people here know how much BCIS got from Markle?
<anonymous> i need to run - how much time do we ahve before they start again ?
<JoopTeernstra> Hello Jonathan. Sorry I couldn't be there, but I didn't have the funds.
<paulds> 20 - 40 minutes?
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<anonymous> kewl
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<anonymous> see u all soon
* anonymous is going to be away from the channel.
<JoopTeernstra> Hello Jonathan. Can you give me a wave on the video?
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<JohnWilbanks> the $200K for icann is all for icann
<JohnWilbanks> we dont' get any of it
<JohnWilbanks> we did receive funds to cover the conference on sunday
<JohnWilbanks> and for another project on deliberative polling
<JohnWilbanks> but that's a totally separate thing
<paulds> The NYT articles says 200k for ICANN, plus more for Carter, CC, ALA, CDT, and BCIS.
<JohnWilbanks> I guess the BCIS means the monies for the conference and the polling
<paulds> probly
<JoopTeernstra> John , come and have a look at the IDNO polling system. Deliberative and all..
<WardGoodwin> I thought I read that the rest was 300K but darned if I can find it now.
<PeteBowden> Polling?
<PeteBowden> I guess I'll go read that NYT Article
<JohnWilbanks> deliberative polling is a concept of james fishkin
<JohnWilbanks> which in the real world brings people together
<JohnWilbanks> for a weekend or so
<paulds> NYT mentions $1 million dedicated to "Internet governance issues"
<JohnWilbanks> and educates them on the issue being polled
<paulds> half of which will be used in ICANN-related ways
<JohnWilbanks> to gain an understanding of the issue before giving an opinion
<paulds> ...and $200k of that $500k half goes to ICANN directly
<JohnWilbanks> we are going to try and take it online
<JohnWilbanks> that's the money we're getting from markle, to study a fullscale
<paulds> So presumably all those other groups I mentioned are splitting the remaining $300k
<JoopTeernstra> Does James Fiskin consider the Internet as a vehicle?
<JohnWilbanks> effort to get delib polling online.
<JohnWilbanks> and markle covered the costs of the conference we held last sunday
<JohnWilbanks> I know nothing about the markle money announced here this week, wasn't at the conference
<JohnWilbanks> and haven't had time to look at the grant.
<JohnWilbanks> though as fiscal manager of berkman
<JohnWilbanks> would be overjoyed if someone threw a pile of money at us
<JohnWilbanks> :-)
<JohnWilbanks> gotta eat
<JohnWilbanks> back in a few
<JoopTeernstra> See you later.
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<DennisSchaefer> Hi again  (Just back):  Is this a long break, John?
<JohnWilbanks> this is lunch
<JohnWilbanks> looks like it'll go for a while longer
<JohnWilbanks> the last comment period went 20 minutes into lunch
<PeteBowden> well, a few of the board members are coming back in, but there's probably only a couple dozen people back from lunch (in the room)
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<DennisSchaefer> Jon Z:  if you're there:  thanks for the way you read the remote questions.  You are unstintingly fair and respectful in the way you render them.
<paulds> agreed
* paulds is gonna go home and see how well RealVideo works over his new Bell Atlantic Infospeed DSL connection.  If my gf will let me.
<paulds> bbl...
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<SrikanthNarra> hi everyone
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<ErickIriarte> hi
<PeteBowden> I think this has probably already been decided...
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<WardGoodwin> Yes I would tend to agree.  I'm not happy about nsi retaining a lock as the registrar for com/net/org and all because they just refused to abide by their contract.  Just goes to show if you drag your feet hard enough you can get what you want.  I believe the tecnical term is TEMPER TANTRUM.
<WardGoodwin> A lock for 8 years that is.
* urgen back from lunch
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<MikkiBarry> pete...tell me what that has been presented by ICANN has ever been substantially changed, even in the face of significant opposition?
<WardGoodwin> They don't have a great history of abiding by contracts.
<WardGoodwin> nsi that is.
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<MikkiBarry> and icann doesn't have a great history of abiding by their bylaws.  They're meant for each other.  LOL
<paulds> just got back... who
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<paulds> 's this speaking?
<paulds> <woops> too quick with the CR. :)
<PeteBowden> ICANN's lawyer
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<WardGoodwin> So your saying we get a choice of accronyms to abuse us...
<WardGoodwin> Gee would that be .... Ownership of the database...<G>
<BenEdelman> FYI - the harvard university network seems to be partially down
<BenEdelman> and we are not able to access the remote participation pages
<BenEdelman> that we use to get comments in
<BenEdelman> at the moment we can get into our databases but that's all
<BenEdelman> not much we can do
<SrikanthNarra> ben will the comments get thru ?
<paulds> Ben, should people e-mail their comments to you for the time being?
<WardGoodwin> We could always post em here....
<BenEdelman> this is actually johnwilbanks
<SrikanthNarra> is that part effected as well
<BenEdelman> I am unable to connect through my machines right now
<BenEdelman> but ben's connection didn't die yet
<BenEdelman> hang tight, we'll patch something together
<SrikanthNarra> good luck gentlemen
<MikkiBarry> hey...why is it that they feel they have to rush through this decision,but not the decision to add more gtlds?
<MikkiBarry> I'm confused
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<urgen> someone should map the dynamics
<MattDavies> it sounds like they're going to ratify this thing
<BenEdelman> We are working on it... hold on...
<PeteBowden> I think that's manifest destiny :-)
<SrikanthNarra> Ben/John can you tell them that the online comments are not getting thru so they know
<urgen> it sounds like they don't enjoy their jobs
<urgen> they are whining.. I would LOVE a chance to fine tune the game
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<PeteBowden> short of court action defining who really owns the data, I think this is going forward no matter what
<BenEdelman> It's not clear.  The comments go into the database successfully if you get the "your comment has been received page."
<BenEdelman> we just can't get the comments until we get 'net over here...
<BenEdelman> (Web server is at Berkman Center offices on Harvard 'net in Cambridge, while we're in LA on ISI net.)
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<MikkiBarry> interesting that amadeau has changed his tune so dramatically
<SrikanthNarra> ..lol..
<PeteBowden> aey yei yei
<MikkiBarry> although not the length of the tune :-)
<SrikanthNarra> to keep things safe give the thief the responsibility for safe - old Indian saying
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<urgen> There isn't much more serious work than forming themselves..
<urgen> why toss it out the window?
<BenEdelman> for those who care... here's my attempted tracert to cyber.law.harvard.edu:
<BenEdelman> blech... it's multiple lines and i can only paste single lines in here.
<BenEdelman> never mind...
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<BenEdelman>   4     9 ms    11 ms     9 ms  130.152.60.2
<BenEdelman> ...
<BenEdelman>  19   104 ms    98 ms    98 ms  192.5.66.10
<BenEdelman>  20     *     140.247.20.2  reports: Destination net unreachable.
<BenEdelman> Looks like the Harvard 'net is at fault.
<paulds> hrm Berkman just bounced me. :/
<BenEdelman> 140.247.20.2 is one of our routers.
<paulds> yeah
<PeteBowden> eh, it's after 5PM there.. maybe someone decided to do maintenance :-)
<BenEdelman> they're not supposed to do that....
<BenEdelman> we just got mail through yahoo.com as a bounce-- use it to get our pop3 mail.
<BenEdelman> let me try something like anonymizer.com to get the realtime comments.
<WardGoodwin> I just posted a comment and it showed up on the website.
<BenEdelman> yup.  if you can get to the server to post and can get to the server to view, then you will seee your comments.  problem is we can't get to the server ot see what you're posting...
<WardGoodwin> Ah... I suggest a modem and a different internet provider...<G>
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<ErickIriarte> see you+
<ErickIriarte> i return tomorrow, i go work something now.
<paulds> see you
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* PeteBowden is really very bored.
<DennisSchaefer> John, sent another one.
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<DennisSchaefer> Did anyone here:  'abuse' of what?
<BenEdelman> got our site up through anonymizer.  this will keep working, i hope...
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<PeteBowden> <there's 20 people in line to make comments>
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<BenEdelman> we got realtime comments through anonymizer, fyi...
<urgen> heheeh
<urgen> secret ballot comments
<PeteBowden> 1-minute rules? hmmm.
<urgen> she needs to be fired
<DennisSchaefer> Ben or John:  are questions restricted to the topic of the agreements?
<PeteBowden> Hah, and tey're putting a 1 minute clock up on the big screen :-)
<MikkiBarry> *sigh*
* paulds is away: (Auto-Away after 10 mins) [BX-MsgLog On]
* paulds is back from the dead. Gone 0 hrs 18 min 8 secs
<MikkiBarry> this is neither open nor accountable to the people who went there
<PeteBowden> It's nice that all this stuff is so at someones fingertips... :-)  I don't think I could find a 1:00 countdown timer this quick
<PeteBowden> Hmm, I get thru to cyber-law... John just stopped by my laptop.
<PeteBowden> so I may not get to see this directly...  I'll sacrifice for all of you if need be
<WardGoodwin> Pete...  Your the best...<G>
<PeteBowden> I guess they're going to get a floppy to update the notes via my wireless modem
<urgen> now THAT's integral participation!
<urgen> I vote speaker out of the position
<urgen> she is sooo rude
<WardGoodwin> But predictable....
<MikkiBarry> I may be lagged
<DennisSchaefer> Anyone: Why is it that comments do not get answers? Neither do archived written comments?  This is not participatory in any sense.
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<PeteBowden> They're just being 'creative' in their responses...
<PeteBowden> Hmm, looks like they may be able to prind from here my laptop (I moved up to the front tech table)
<DennisSchaefer> This speaker is correct... absolutely.
<WardGoodwin> I would guess they get advice from the same people that advise politicians on public speaking...
<urgen> not aware of the problem!
<DennisSchaefer> I feel sorry for any registrar who can't see quickly whether a name is already taken.
<paulds> ha
<DennisSchaefer> Or assure a buyer that a name won't be taken by someone else.
<WardGoodwin> whois -h whois.geektools.com
<urgen> :-)
<WardGoodwin> Works mucho better than nsi as nsi is a subset of what it shows.
<DennisSchaefer> Pete: sorry for subj. change.  I guess I'm wondering whether ICANN's version of 'participation' (which looks a lot like audience comments on the Jerry Springer show) would be considered adequate by the FCC or FTC or regulatory body that has heavy "public notice and comment" obligations.  Does anyone know?
<SrikanthNarra> gosh the depth of understanding (or lack of) of board members is stunning
<BenEdelman> If anyone cares... I wrote that countdown clock in VB last November before the first ICANN Meeting in Cambridge.
<MikkiBarry> This is truly embarassing
<DennisSchaefer> Really, Sri, my son is listening to this and says "I knew the Net would collapse when taken over by non-tecchies."
<WardGoodwin> Oh no... he mentioned unix...  there going to roll their eyes and go brain dead...
<MikkiBarry> And this is the group who is going to manage the "technical aspects" of the Internet?
<MikkiBarry> We are doomed.
<MikkiBarry> Time to put our time into other roots
<WardGoodwin> Ah... grasshopper, the light awakens...
<urgen> like this one -- bcis is here...
<WardGoodwin> Be nice if the roots were organized like the web rings.  That way no SINGLE entity could/would control it.
<DennisSchaefer> My son says everyone in the room should be embarrassed not to know that a WHOIS query is directed at RS.Internic.net by default. I
<WardGoodwin> Grin... That's what an alias is for...    Mine is  whoisit
<PeteBowden> It's not really writing software, it's just making the DNS entries for whois, rs, and rs0.internic.net all going to a new consolidated whois which queries all of the registries
<PeteBowden> It's not the people in the room, there was chuckles and other noises when a particular comment had been made by the front table.
<DennisSchaefer> Which comment, Pete -- 'over my head?'
<PeteBowden> Ack, some of you I think talked to me while I moved my laptop up to the front :-)
<WardGoodwin> Is OWNS that hard.   not use/control whatever.  OWNS...
<WardGoodwin> Good one....
<DennisSchaefer> Who is reading the qeustions?
<WardGoodwin> It's much more annoying when they don't answer MY questions...*sigh*
<WardGoodwin> Whoever it is he's doing a great job.  Good voice and no observable bias.
<SrikanthNarra> are online questions being read as well ?
<WardGoodwin> Slowly.  I think they mix em in as they fit in the current 'thread'
<DennisSchaefer> I was wondering if that might be either Ben or John doing the reading.
<SrikanthNarra> are they going to read online comments ?
<DennisSchaefer> They just read a summary of several., Sri.
<WardGoodwin> They read mine about 15 min ago.  I haven't heard any others yet though.
<SrikanthNarra> mine was not read
<WardGoodwin> Although to be honest.  The didn't answer it.
<PeteBowden> <back to the back of the room now :-)>  There are ~13 people in the lines
<PeteBowden> oooh, cookies and soda :-)
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<WardGoodwin> I'm well into my 2nd 2liter bottle...<G>  Cookies?....  Ohh...<G>
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<DennisSchaefer> Crashed just now:  all's well now.
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<WardGoodwin> Computers ~= Job Security
<DennisSchaefer> Hi Joop
<SrikanthNarra> hi joop
<JoopTeernstra> Hi Dennis, Hi Sri,  Who's speaking now?
<urgen> it is public comment
<urgen> during a break
<PeteBowden> yea, something like that....  the breaks tend to suffer at the public general ICANN section of this meeting
<JoopTeernstra> Joe Sims is taking an aggressive posture. Did I miss anything earth shaking?
<MikkiBarry> no
<urgen> except that what is being presented now seems to be earth shattering to the board
<JoopTeernstra> Hi Mikki
<urgen> why don't they understand?
<PeteBowden> earthshattering?  hmmm...  he wants them to meet 7 specific points that the other registries wish -- I don't have the list
<urgen> the list of 7 points was an attempt to show something of what would have happened had they been able to approach the table
<urgen> they actually are asking to be part of the discussion and felt left out
<urgen> earthshattering, in that there previously was no doubt to the quality of the standing proposal
<WardGoodwin> No one was willing to pull there chain now so what makes anybody think that it's a valid threat now?
<JoopTeernstra> This comes from people that were supportive of what was happening thus far.
<WardGoodwin> Anyone ever give thought to have someone be an avatar for the online people?
<MikkiBarry> is joe fighting with esther?
<paulds> hmm...
<paulds> 1 minute per person, eh? :)
* paulds sighs
<MikkiBarry> as usual, the rules are only for some :-)
<SrikanthNarra> who is the person talking now ?
<DennisSchaefer> Urgen: on a scale of 1-10 (with 1 totally unexpected),how surprising is this exchange?
* SrikanthNarra bounces around the channel.
<SrikanthNarra> so much for last question before online comments
<PeteBowden> Isn't that amazing... from the people that they currently SUPPOSEDLY have consensus from, 16? of the ?17 registrars DISAGREE with the acceptance ... and then there's the other non-registrars that seem to disagree...  and the board which all attempt to sculpt the questions and answers into a way they can accept the agreement
* paulds sighs
<PeteBowden> the 1 minute rule doesn't apply to the board members.
* SrikanthNarra Laughs-Out-Loud!!
<MikkiBarry> THat's why it is so important to force documentation of the claims of consensus
<MikkiBarry> There WAS NO consensus on most of the issues that ICANN has rushed to implement
<MikkiBarry> We have repeatedly asked for documentation of consensus and have been repeatedly ignored
<PeteBowden> It's just like congress... they make rules that they don't have to abide by :-) (actually, I think it's okay for them to speak more, but I wish they didn't repeat the same thing each time)
<MikkiBarry> That's ONE good thing about the NSI agreement
<MikkiBarry> it defines and forces consensus
<WardGoodwin> Assuming they will follow the contract better than the bylaws...
<PeteBowden> It defines consensus?  I haven't read the agreement, but I thought I heard that it basically was if NSI agreed there was a consensus... so all they have to do is say they don't think there is a consensus
<PeteBowden> oh man...  people clapped on that one and they just say "I'll find out"
<paulds> good question Wendy
<PeteBowden> they didn't say they would provide the answer, they just will find out (possibly for themselves)
<DennisSchaefer> That sure turned the tables!
<SrikanthNarra> :)
<WardGoodwin> Grin....   Just what we need.  Icann police...
<PeteBowden> wow, threats for a legal solution.   ...  with "comment noted..." JEESH
<SrikanthNarra> only two comments ?
<MikkiBarry> how long is this thing going to last tonight?
<SrikanthNarra> what about other comments
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<MikkiBarry> yet another example of the trademark lobby sticking its nose into the registrar
<MikkiBarry> business
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<MikkiBarry> Looks like people are starting to figure out that the intellectual property lawyers are actually harming competition as well as the Internet
<DennisSchaefer> What was Amadeu's point?  'We've only just begun?'
<paulds> is everyone hearing a quiet jittery noise in the background of the RV feed, or is it just me?
<DennisSchaefer> yes
<WardGoodwin> Yes.  Sounds like a bad fan...
<JoopTeernstra> 15Sri are you still there?
<paulds> heh yeah.  Ok, just wanted to make sure it wasn't a problem with the Linux RV client
<WardGoodwin> How many at the mikes now?
<PeteBowden> It's scheduled to go until 6PM (Pacific time) tonight...  it's 4:05PM...  I think it's clear we are behind schedule - I think it was suppoed to end at 3PM (and with the break already occuring, 3:30PM)... so we're at least 40 minutes behind schedule
<JoopTeernstra> 15Is this? I'm not familiar with this chat client. I will have to leave shortly for a meeting
<BenEdelman> There are at least 10 at the mikes
<PeteBowden> 11 people...  as one person leaves others show up :-)
<PeteBowden> <there are 2 rows, I see 6 and 5>
<WardGoodwin> Grin.  Wish I was there.  I'ld just get back in line...<G>
<BenEdelman> We are trying to get online comments in
<PeteBowden> ack... 6 and 4 :-)
<PeteBowden> ahh, some people may be sitting next to the line :-)
<WardGoodwin> Joop, gray on white text is very hard to read...
* JoopTeernstra is going to be away from the channel.
<JoopTeernstra> Sorry. I'll have to sign off now
<DennisSchaefer> Later, Joop
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<WardGoodwin> Later,
<PeteBowden> there's a whole lotta thank'n goin' on...  <lack of substantive responses>
<DennisSchaefer> Yawn: "Thanks for your comments?????"
<PeteBowden> they're just trying to shut down comments....  they really don't want to deal with the discent
<DennisSchaefer> If this were a New England town meeting, the moderator would have assigned the queue to a comittee, and postponed the larger question until the committee had resolved it.   The diffrence here appears to be that the deal is done, and the comments are not going to be permitted to impact the Board's actions.
<MikkiBarry> sure makes me feel that way too, dennis given the way that the whole thing is being run
<WardGoodwin> I feel your pain.....
<BenEdelman> Scribe notes are now up to date
<PeteBowden> <7 people in line, after the current person that is speaking>
<DennisSchaefer> Yeah, Sherry
<WardGoodwin> Seems I brought that up hours ago....<G>
* paulds claps loudly
<paulds> hells yeah
* paulds reminds himself to mail in his EFF membership renewal...
<PeteBowden> YES!   We need an OPT IN for their being able to USE the data
<paulds> _OUR_ data.  <nod>
<WardGoodwin> Yipppyyyyy..    Replace ester with her...<G>
<DennisSchaefer> Agreed!   That would cover the Euro Data directive too.
<PeteBowden> Is she with the EFF?
<paulds> yes
<paulds> ah, good question
<MikkiBarry> I am so lagged
<MikkiBarry> sherri is right now speaking on my machine
<paulds> DoC lady is responding to her escrow concerns...
<WardGoodwin> Teh Europeans think were nuts to let our personal data be so unprotected...
<paulds> we are nuts
<WardGoodwin> Not going to argue that...<G>
<PeteBowden> <8 in line>
<PeteBowden> We're between a nut and a hard place :-)
<WardGoodwin> Any idea what time the 'Open Pulic Comment Period' will start?   We still 40 min late?
<DennisSchaefer> Ward --  history repeats itself.  The US invented privacy, then abandoned it to the direct marketing lobby.
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<DennisSchaefer> Hey Mark ... fun day, hunh?
<MarkLangston> Yep.  The bits I've been able to participate in.
<PeteBowden> Yea, just shut off comment or what :-)
<MarkLangston> I've had to attend meetings and work most of the day.
<WardGoodwin> Yeah....  The almighty dollar...*sigh*
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<BretFausett> There's an odd chirping on the audio.
<MarkLangston> Bret:  It's been there all week.
<paulds> hi Bret.  Yes, it's a problem at that end. :/
<paulds> demons in the encoder, perhaps
<urgen> the chirping sounds like an air conditioner
<MarkLangston> What's going on with the on-line comments today?  I notice practically none have been read.
<BretFausett> Thanks.  I'll listen to it as a proxy for all of the whispering and side conversations in the room
<WardGoodwin> Snafu.   And the people in line at the mic's seem to have precedence...
<MarkLangston> Whee.
<WardGoodwin> Of course if I had went in person I probally would want to go first too...<G>
<MarkLangston> Typical.  The people in the room, who are mostly registrars, take precedence over those who can't afford to be there, and don't have huge amounts of money at stake.
<PeteBowden> There was a period of technical difficulty earlier but that's been resolved, I think they're trying hard, but my guess is that ICANN may concider many of the questions redundant.
<MarkLangston> Doesn't matter.  The psychological impact of having them voiced is important.
<MarkLangston> Hearing one point once is one thing.  hearing the same point echoed over and over again is a different matter.
<PeteBowden> <at least 4 in line...>
<BretFausett> I just left there. The lines at the microphone are very long now that they're on the NSI contracts.
<WardGoodwin> Factor in the psycholigical impact of having em voiced and sidesteped or not answered...
<MarkLangston> Bret:  Any of them armed with water baloons?
<BretFausett> Not that I saw. Spit wads, maybe.
<MarkLangston> Darn.
<WardGoodwin> I could have way too much fun with the ole rubber band gun...
<DennisSchaefer> So this is Peter!
<paulds> a few companies were sponsoring coffee breaks... maybe IDNO could sponsor some Super-Soakers for key individuals...
<PeteBowden> Peter?
<MarkLangston> Ever notice how politicians are quick to point out  they ask for expert opinions, but they decide when they've heard enough and whether the experts opinions are relevant?  Just a bit odd.
<DennisSchaefer> Peter Dengate-Thrush from NZ
<MikkiBarry> LOL...yes mark.  and also the doublespeak in the "rebidding would cost more" nonsense
<MarkLangston> Maybe the law firm should sponsor free Thorazine and lobotomies. :)
<WardGoodwin> AOL?
<paulds> haha
<MarkLangston> Why is Burr fielding most of the questions?  It seems an awkward position for DOC to be defending ICANN here.
<MarkLangston> Is that PD-T?
<WardGoodwin> Yeap a cheap shot but Humor is budjet priced...<G>
<MikkiBarry> they have to defend ICANN.  They created it :-)
<MarkLangston> True.
<MarkLangston> Weren't they supposed to switch to general comments at 4:30?
<paulds> heh.  schedules.  bah.
<MarkLangston> Maybe they confused the agenda with the bylaws. :)
<WardGoodwin> They were about 40 min behind but they went through a 30 min break so theoretically they should only be 10 min behind...<G>
<MarkLangston> Ah, ok.  If they're behind, it makes sense.
<paulds> hah
<paulds> "if" they're behind? :)
<PeteBowden> We're effectively at 15:30 and holding <running overtime> in the schedule
<paulds> when has an ICANN mtg ever *not* been behind? :)
<MarkLangston> True.
<PeteBowden> So, technically, that's basically 77 minutes behind :-)
<MarkLangston> At least this time they don't have to clear the room for another meeting.
<WardGoodwin> At least this time the video and audio feeds have worked.  Yeah Ben and John...<G>
<paulds> yes, kudos to Berkman folks.
<PeteBowden> but I'll bet the chop the Registrar related period down
<MarkLangston> I love the way she listens, then just says 'thanks' and moves on.  They should at least comment on the statements made.
<PeteBowden> (AT&T running over time... so much for being HARD on that 60-seconds :-))
<MarkLangston> I mean, she could just be saying, "thank you for filling this silence for the past 5 minutes and blowing my hair back.  Next!"
<WardGoodwin> Did anyone read the analysis Berkman did on the nsi agreement?
<MarkLangston> Pete:  Maybe ICANN should charge them per minute.  Turnabout's fair play. :)
<MarkLangston> Ward:  I haven't had time.  I barely had time to read the agreement itself.
<PeteBowden> That only works if it works both ways...  :-)
<MarkLangston> go SBA go!
<WardGoodwin> It's pretty effective.   Makes the actual agreement a bit more understandable..
<PeteBowden> after this guy there are 2 still in line...
<DennisSchaefer> Is this where the Executive Branch has a nervous breakdown?
<MarkLangston> Pete:  Only two?  That's a good thing.
<MarkLangston> The SBA needs to maintain a hard-line.  This is coming across to soft.
<MarkLangston> s/to/too.
<paulds> but good comments anyway
<DennisSchaefer> Mark -- did you hear him earlier today?  He was fiery!
<WardGoodwin> s/to/way to
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<MarkLangston> Dennis:  No, I missed it.  I'm the president of a security association in the Bay area, and we had our monthly meeting this afternoon.
<PeteBowden> <1 after this guy>
<DennisSchaefer> He was incredible.  ANother SBA guy (Erick Menge) read them what almost sounded like a summons.
<WardGoodwin> Perhaps he received a call after the first round...<G>
<MarkLangston> Sweeeet.  How did the BoD react?  "Thanks, next!" ?
<DennisSchaefer> They acknowledged service of his letter of complaint.
<MarkLangston> In other words, "thanks, next."  :)
<MarkLangston> van Couvering needs to push this home.
<MarkLangston> ...and not let Roberts trample him on this.
<PeteBowden> No thanks.... next
<MarkLangston> ...In your opinion.
<DennisSchaefer> Sort of.  But having the SBA fight NTIA was thrilling
<MikkiBarry> ah..it went through..yay
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<MarkLangston> Mmmm...there's that "great lengths" again.
<MarkLangston> I'm shocked he didn't throw "consensus" in there.
<WardGoodwin> That's usually about 1/2 inch (1.25cm) from the end of their nose...
<MarkLangston> *chuckle*
<MikkiBarry> oh dear...we've made mistakes yet again :-)
<MarkLangston> Burr just did a good thing.
<MikkiBarry> ACK!  the initial board DOES still exist until it is ALL replaced
<MarkLangston> Yep.
<PeteBowden> ... <2 people in line>
<MarkLangston> Mikki:  Good comment, thanks for echoing some of mine.  Maybe there's a slim chance they'll get read and responded to.
<PeteBowden> make that 6 people in line
<MikkiBarry> likely not, Mark, but thanks
<MarkLangston> Mikki:  The IPC is going to charge the DNRC?!?!?!?
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<DennisSchaefer> Welcome back, John
<MarkLangston> So now it's "we welcome individuals, cough up just like the large corps"???
<MikkiBarry> but of course, Mark
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<MarkLangston> Sheesh.
<BenEdelman> Why the name changes?
* JohnWilbanks John beats his chest after finally getting back into chat
<MikkiBarry> I bet you also didn't know that they have decided to break the voting up into three different things
<WardGoodwin> Nutz....   Forget the comments...
<JohnWilbanks> Irony, folks...
<tommyg> lol.
<JohnWilbanks> had to use ORSC namservers to resolve my problems here
<JohnWilbanks> LOL
<JohnWilbanks> but here I am again...
<MarkLangston> Mikki:  Oh, I was aware of the weighted voting.  It disgusts me, and has started to bleed over into WG-B...the attitude that it should prevail, anyway.
<MikkiBarry> individuals may be members of the IPC but cannot vote whatsoever
<MikkiBarry> DNRC gets three votes, IF it pays.  Ridiculous given that the only reason why the IPC was formed was because DNRC was put in as a "dissenter"
<MarkLangston> Mikki:  Out of curiosity, what're they asking DNRC to pay?
<urgen> wow. I thought that was the white album
<MarkLangston> Who's reading the comments, and why are they selectively reading them?
<JohnWilbanks> Jon Zittrain is reading the comments
<JohnWilbanks> and we're reading them as we can
<WardGoodwin> Because they intend to leave in 15 min  for the night.
<MikkiBarry> the same as everyone else, mark
<JohnWilbanks> now that we finally have our system up again
<MarkLangston> John:  But Jon's skipping over people.
<JohnWilbanks> in favor of those who have not been heard yet today, yes.
<WardGoodwin> Not blaming you John.  But ester said a few min ago they were planning on quiting at 5:15
<MarkLangston> John:  In that case, both of mine were skipped, and those are the only two I submitted today.
<JohnWilbanks> I know...we are watching the clock with you as well.
<MikkiBarry> Uh, excuse me, but we were told one comment per person per comment period
<JohnWilbanks> Mark:  well taken...will pass the comment to Z.
<JohnWilbanks> Mikki - I am mainly trying to get any piece
<MikkiBarry> That says nothing about taking only those who had not spoken at all
<JohnWilbanks> of the system working now
<JohnWilbanks> and froomkin hadn't gotten anything through yet, and his comment was ontopic
<PeteBowden> Ah, now the backers of NSI...  MPAA and the Intelectual Properties people, IBM
<JohnWilbanks> and Jon chose it.
<MikkiBarry> that's wonderful, John...but we were promised one per person
<WardGoodwin> I submitted one for the general comment section at 2:23   # 660
<JohnWilbanks> Mikki - a limit of one per person isn't a promise of one per person
<JohnWilbanks> but I'll not defend further now.
<JohnWilbanks> will instead focus on getting all comments together
<JohnWilbanks> for the archive
<MikkiBarry> so once again the online people are disenfranchised.  *sigh*
<urgen> :-)
<WardGoodwin> I only submitted one for the general comment section.
<MikkiBarry> me too ward...but we don't count.  We aren't rich enough to fly out there
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<JohnWilbanks> mikki, unfar
<MarkLangston> John:  If you wqould (I was unaware of the 1 per period rule today), please consolidate my two into one general comment.
<PeteBowden> as are much of the in-person people.
<WardGoodwin> Sure I am.  I'ld have to walk back tho...<G>
<JohnWilbanks> as you well know, blaming us doesn't really help
<MikkiBarry> if I had flown out there, I would have been able to stand at the microphone
<MikkiBarry> who said I was blaming you, John?
<MikkiBarry> If ICANN doesn't take the comments, it is solely ICANN's fault
<MarkLangston> Zittrain could just get a printout and get in line for the mic. :)
<JohnWilbanks> sorry, frustration of a long day boiling out
<JohnWilbanks> and of losing DNS for three full hours
<JohnWilbanks> during a fairly important meeting
<JohnWilbanks> is getting to me.
<DennisSchaefer> Here we go!
<paulds> the system can be frustrating, yes, but you guys have been doign an admirable job.  Please go ahead and do it. :)
<MikkiBarry> I very much appreciate all the work you guys have done, John.
<MarkLangston> Ditto.
<MikkiBarry> However, I am VERY peeved at ICANN.
<MarkLangston> It can be frustrating to be yelling into an abyss at times, however.
<MikkiBarry> Mark:  some of us have been yelling into an abyss for the past 5 years.  Some things never change
<MarkLangston> John:  I'll forego my comments if Jon can just read Mikki's current comment.
<PeteBowden> I don't know how many people you think are here from Berkman actually running this, but they're all fairly busy running clocks, typing up the notes on the screen, audio levels, all sorts of things...
<MikkiBarry> wow, thanks Mark
<DennisSchaefer> John:  skip mine too.
<MarkLangston> Mikki:  No problem.  You echo my sentiments.
<WardGoodwin> And they are all VERY appreciated.  Great job under very trying curcumstances....
<JohnWilbanks> also, this may partially be my fault
<JohnWilbanks> as Zittrain just said we're still in public comment on the NSI/ICANN/DOC agreements
<urgen> :-) yah sure
<JohnWilbanks> and not public comment period as I thought
<MikkiBarry> so we aren't having a public comment period?
<MarkLangston> Since Dyson just said they'd end at 5.15, isn't it irrelevant?
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<MikkiBarry> guess so, Mark.  *sigh*
<JohnWilbanks> just passing on the word
<MikkiBarry> thank you John
<MarkLangston> Thanks John.
<JohnWilbanks> that may be a reason for filtering though
<JohnWilbanks> to keep ontopic
<PeteBowden> Yea, looks like they're colapsing the schedule :-) getting rid of 2 other comment periods it seems, hmmm, maybe 3
<JohnWilbanks> just guessing here though
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<JohnWilbanks> thanks for sticking with us during this tough day
<paulds> cute
<JohnWilbanks> and for staying with remote participation
<JohnWilbanks> despite the warts
<MarkLangston> John:  Keep in mind, we don't have much choice. :)
<PeteBowden> icant.org is a customer of ours (since 9NetAve is one of our companies) :-)
<MikkiBarry> LOL paul :-)
<WardGoodwin> Thanks John, Ben, and the rest of the Berkman crew!
<JohnWilbanks> someone please tell richard sexton thanks for the vrx nameservers...
<PeteBowden> Yes, thanks alot to Berkman Center and staff...
<MarkLangston> heh!
<JohnWilbanks> he'll like that, I bet.
<JohnWilbanks> was my last try, once I could get through on IP numbers...
<MarkLangston> Amadeu's going to be a liability for the ICANN BoD even in a group full of liabilities.
<MarkLangston> He's going to find himself shut out as a loose cannon.
<MikkiBarry> well, Esther's not listened to us yet again....go figure
<MarkLangston> Case in point:  He's asserting his own opinions here.
<WardGoodwin> Be nice to have a seperate video feed of Esther's face when he's talking...<G>
<MarkLangston> heh!
<MarkLangston> But I don't have any Nerf darts! :)
<MarkLangston> Esther's probably cursing herself for giving him the floor right about now.
<MikkiBarry> anybody got a timer on amadeu?
<WardGoodwin> He just went past Esther's 5:15 deadline...<G>
<PeteBowden> yea, and there's still another 15 or 16 BoD members to go
<DennisSchaefer> What?????
<MarkLangston> Like I said, let him ramble.  The more conservative elements will shut him out as an uncontrollable detriment, particularly if he carries himself the way he has on the NC.
<MarkLangston> ...and he's demonstrating his willingness to do exactly that now.
<MikkiBarry> well, the good news is that southpark is on tonight :-)
<MarkLangston> *LAUGH*  It is, but I missed the Halloween special.
<paulds> hah
<JohnWilbanks> nice part for us is that we finally don't have to break down
<JohnWilbanks> and set up again tonight
<JohnWilbanks> for the first time this week
<MarkLangston> I've got to say that, even though I didn't support him, I'm glad Pisanty got the 3-year seat.
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<JohnWilbanks> were doing setup last night from 9-12PM!
<JohnWilbanks> after doing it saturday/sunday/monday nights as well
<JohnWilbanks> brutal
<MarkLangston> John:  In Cthulhu's name, why?!?
<JohnWilbanks> the rooms got booked late
<JohnWilbanks> and we had to keep on moving
<WardGoodwin> Ouch... I was doing a detailed examination of the insides of my eyelids...<G>
<JohnWilbanks> from place to place
* paulds pats the Berkman staff on its collective back.
<MarkLangston> so they made you do the setup in the middle of the night?!?  evil.
<JohnWilbanks> We're going to eat well tonight
<JohnWilbanks> there is a raytheon convention going on
<JohnWilbanks> and they had a party in this room last night
<JohnWilbanks> til 9.
<paulds> ooh
<DennisSchaefer> John:  when's ICANN going to do something in Boston for a change?
<JohnWilbanks> so we couldn't start til then
<paulds> and Raytheon has super space weapons now
<paulds> so you dont wanna piss them off
<JohnWilbanks> Dennis:  no idea, they did one last year...
<MarkLangston> Mmmm...Raytheon.  Try to find out what the NSA's paying for this year.
<JohnWilbanks> and lord knows, it'd be too easy to just carry the 350lbs of gear
<JohnWilbanks> cross town instead of cross country of internationally
* JohnWilbanks john's back hurts remembering carrying all gear to Santiago
<paulds> next ICANN meeting: John Harvard's Pub in Harvard Square.
<MarkLangston> John:  That's what students are for. :)
<DennisSchaefer> Now I'd love to hear Esther explain that in detail!
<JohnWilbanks> We don't get budget for students internationally, unfortunately :)
<JohnWilbanks> Or I'd have delegated that sucker in a heartbeat
<MarkLangston> "We have accountability and public blahblahblah". --Esther Dyson, L.A., 1999
<JohnWilbanks> If we're going to have a meeting in a Boston bar, I would suggest
<JohnWilbanks> something away from the students
<MikkiBarry> they still got a bar upstairs in the hong kong restaurant?  or is that gone?
<MarkLangston> Esther has this innate knack for coming up with impromptu incredibly embarassing soundbytes.
<JohnWilbanks> though that's sometimes like avoiding rain in seattle...
<paulds> but John Harvards has a nice big meeting room. :)
<JohnWilbanks> it's been trying today you guys, but fun nonetheless.
<JohnWilbanks> Paul, we'll grab that beer sometime and talk remote participation
<DennisSchaefer> Excellent job, Ben and John and Jon!
<paulds> righto
<MikkiBarry> well thanks John...and please don't take our frustration as anything against you
<paulds> sounds good
<PeteBowden> I like the:  whois -h whois.geektools.com (just thought I'd point that out in case others think it's cool)
<JohnWilbanks> maybe we'll record and web archive the discussion (first part, at least)
<MarkLangston> ..except for the online participants, who we ignored all day...
<JohnWilbanks> bye, see you tomorrow.
<paulds> sure
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<paulds> Pete, plus they have leet graphics on the website
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<PeteBowden> coolness...
<DennisSchaefer> Okay ---  I'm outta here.  Goodnight all!
<paulds> bbye
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* paulds needs to run off to a pub right now. :/
<WardGoodwin> Tomarrow....
<paulds> later all
<urgen> :-)
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<icant> quiting
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