Terry Fisher: |
It's 7:00 in Boston, and Mark Napier has kindly agreed to join us for
a one-hour live interview. Mark, welcome. |
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First of all, let me thank you for being here. This course, as you
probably know, is an experimental venture in web-based education. About
1000 people are now registered. You are providing us our first live interview. |
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The software we are using (as many students will say)... |
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is still a bit experimental. But we're hoping that it works decently
for the next hour... |
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here's how I hope to proceed... |
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You and I can talk for about 20 minutes, then we'll begin accepting
questions from the audience... |
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Is that OK with you? |
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OK, here's the first question (from Jen Carpenter)... |
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1. How long have you been producing digital art for the Internet? Did
you work in other genres before establishing yourself as a digital artist? |
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Interesting. Just for our information, are you in NYC now? |
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One of the things useful (for our purposes) about your diverse background... |
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is that you may be able to see the issue of artistic integrity from
a variety of angles... |
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So, for example, I'm curious how you feel about other situations in
which the creator of a piece of art (assuming, for the moment, that Barbie
counts as a form of sculpture) feels that his artistic integrity has been
threatened by some kind of distortion. How do you feel about colorized
movies?… |
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1. Another example: Some years ago, the producers of Monty Python objected
when ABC broadcast an edited version of one of their shows, claiming that
the editing distorted the humor. Are you inclined to be sympathetic? |
mnapier: |
The question is where can we find a balance between the creator of
the image, .... |
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and the appropriator... |
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Both have a valid stake in the life cycle of an image/idea/conversation... |
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I'm aware of the artists at Mattel, and realize that their issues are
real, as are mine. |
Terry Fisher: |
But I take it that you think Mattel overstepped its bounds when they
went after your... |
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original distorted Barbie site... |
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I'm curious: You consulted, I gather, with some lawyers when you were
first presented with Mattel's letter to your ISP... |
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What did they say to you?.. |
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Did you agree with their advice? |
mnapier: |
I spoke to several lawyers, one was a paid consultation. They felt
that I had a case... |
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Most felt that the site was clearly parody, and so had to refer to
Barbie, as that was the subject of the parody.... |
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There was no attempt to sell dolls, distorted or otherwise, and no
selling of images.... |
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and the site was clearly not misleading anyone into thinking that this
was a Mattel product... |
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so trademark 'tarnishing' seemed like a weak case for Mattel as well..... |
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Interesting though that they all recommended not pursuing it unless
I had to (i.e.. career issues) ..... |
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due to expenses, both in $$$ and time, not to mention stress... |
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A hidden factor to the legal process. |
Terry Fisher: |
Interesting. I'm especially curious about the "career issues"... |
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I would think that fighting this claim would only enhance your reputation
as an artist... |
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Or were the lawyers suggesting that other forms of retaliation were
available to Mattel?... |
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The circumstances you point to are all relevant -- and clearly strengthen
your case on both copyright and trademark grounds.. |
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Unfortunately, it's true that the idea of trademark "dilution" including
"tarnishing" has grown so dramatically in recent years... |
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that Mattel may have had a case... |
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The issue of time and expense is very troubling, because it strongly
tilts the scales in favor of organization like Mattel... |
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FYI, for the future, there are many IP layers who would be willing
to take on a case like your on a "pro bono" basis. |
mnapier: |
Publicity is nice, but I'm not sure I want to be the 'Barbie artist'.
And it takes time to follow the legal issues, which is time not spent on
art... |
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I preferred not to go on a frontal assault against Mattel, and instead
incorporated the legal issues into the dialog of the website..... |
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I think the idea that pop-culture icons are 'policed' to retain their
'purity' is much clearer now that I've altered the site... |
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This approach is more interesting to me than fighting head on. |
Terry Fisher: |
Did you expect others to construct memes of your site, thereby sustaining
your challenge (and your art) but relieving you of the burden of fighting
the legal battle? |
mnapier: |
The memes were a surprise. That happened by itself. I'm happy that
people took it upon themselves to play a role in the process.... |
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which raised more questions about ownership on the net..... |
admin: |
We will now start accepting questions from the audience and will feed
them into the dialogue. |
mnapier: |
The memes point to the broad possibility of publishing in this medium. |
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... |
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anyone can publish... |
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not just large corporations or magazines, etc..... |
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so before Mattel was a producer of pop-culture - the Barbie image and
story.... |
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but now anybody with a net account can publish at the same level of
quality.... |
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and with the same distribution channels... |
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That is a threat to the current producers of these images, who used
to have much more power in publishing their images. |
Terry Fisher: |
Very interesting. I've got lots more questions, but people in the audience
are waiting to talk, so why don't we take some questions "from the floor"? |
mnapier: |
okay. |
admin: |
Please submit by typing into the text entry window at the bottom of
the chat frame. |
areinhold asks: |
I'm curious if the legal advice he got came before or after the ruling
in Mattel vs MCA. -- areinhold |
mnapier: |
MCA is the 'Aqua Girl' case? .... the advice I got was before that.... |
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actually at about the same time that case started up. |
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Sorry, I meant 'Aqua' in the above. |
Terry Fisher: |
Mark, Here's a question from Sonja Sonnenburg : "Your Barbie work seems
to draw from the tradition of Readymade Art or from Warholian views on
popular culture. To what extent does your artwork and/or philosophies differ
from other artists?" |
mnapier: |
Warhol is an influence... |
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Though I think more about pop-culture directly, that Warhol. I'm influenced
by what I see in Toy's-R-Us... |
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I see pop-culture as a powerful part of our learning, like a collective
subconscious. I don't see fine art as separate from pop culture.... |
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but related to it.... |
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I think most artists prefer to see fine art as separate.... |
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perhaps more important, but I don't make that distinction. |
Terry Fisher: |
That sounds right to me. The artists I know seem to think of the web
as... |
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a publishing medium, not a creative medium... |
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So, a photographer sees the web as a way of distributing his photos... |
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and then criticizes it because the resolution is not as good as on
a cebachrome print.. |
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I gather that you see it differently. |
mnapier: |
That's changing.... |
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Artists are working in the medium for it's own qualities.... |
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Though they are a small band of ruffians at this point.... |
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Part of the Distorted Barbie was the re-use of images, something that
the net is driving these days.... |
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and I think these issues of ownership and derivative work will keep
surfacing as artists explore this new territory. |
Terry Fisher: |
Speaking of re-use of images, here's a question from Jen Carpenter
that asks an analogous question about your work: Here's a question from
Jen Carpenter: "Many people have mirrored your original "Distorted Barbie"
site so that, while you have been prevented from displaying your work,
others are able to do so without a problem. Do you mind if your fans continue
to make and distribute/publish copies of your work? Most "real space" artists
rely heavily on their "moral right" to control the way in which their work
is displayed. Do you feel that the "open protocol" nature of Web culture
calls for a different standard in the Internet art world?" |
mnapier: |
As long as my name is on my work, I don't care if people copy it..... |
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distribution is part of the life of the work.... |
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Part of this approach is that I'm not selling the images, so no income
is lost..... |
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I'm not sure the older ideas of ownership and selling/buying work will
fly in this medium.... |
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Something else has to be invented... Definitely a "different standard"
.... |
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I see myself as creating an idea, a conversation, dialogue, a public
process.... I don't want to set artificial limits on it.... |
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rather, let is grow and see where it goes. I'm prepared to accept the
consequences - someone may re-use my work .... |
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in way's I disagree with. That's part of the dialog. |
admin: |
I'd like to remind the audience that we are now accepting questions. |
areinhold asks: |
Should there be something like the GNU public license for on-line art
anyone can copy or derive as long as the grant the same privileges to others. |
mnapier: |
I think there is an unwritten rule to that effect now.... |
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Most people are considerate, some are ignorant and don't even realize
they are copying others work.... |
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I think that making it official helps, but doesn't mean that people
will adhere to it. |
ScottGarren asks: |
How does the artist make a living on the web? How does the web fit
into your business plan? |
mnapier: |
Plan??? I'm making this up as I go. So are most of the people making
money on the web. .... |
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It's all very new. I support myself by designing software for the finance
industry. ..... |
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So I'm fairly schizo.... |
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But it works. I make money, and still have time/energy to create artwork,
and there is overlap in the knowledge .... |
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between art and job. |
Terry Fisher: |
Let's go back to something you mentioned a while ago. You indicated
that the only thing you found objectionable was the re-use of your images
by someone who removes your name. Why is attribution of that sort essential
to you? Imagine a furniture-maker or architect or chef – all artists on
some level. Their creations are typically used, used up, altered, and redistributed
without any credit being given to the creator. ... |
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Why should net artists be different? ... |
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Or perhaps the question should be: why should visual artists be different? |
mnapier: |
Hmm..... Ever hear of Emeril Lagasse? Julia Child?....... |
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I think chef's want credit as much as anyone..... |
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They live by reputation (my wife's a chef, and I can attest to the
power of her ego)..... |
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It all depends on what world you live in. Architects are known by people
who study architecture..... |
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I want to be respected for excellence. That means that at least certain
audiences will appreciate what I'm creating..... |
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and that means that I need to put my name on what I make..... |
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Also, these other professions can make some money from products, while
all I'm getting from this is recognition. |
Robin asks: |
Mark, how important are the software tools you use for tweaking images
in order to get your ideas across? For example, bullets without a gun are
limited. Would your parody of Barbie have materialized another way? |
mnapier: |
I painted Barbie years before I scanned the doll..... |
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And the paintings raised some eyebrows.... |
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but I saw the computer as a better medium for reworking images.... |
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So the parody did materialize an other way, but reached a very small
audience..... |
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The fun of the web is that I can parody/explore pop-culture in a pop-culture
medium. So in some ways..... |
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my work is very tied to digital imaging and networks. |
cpriest asks: |
should a Internet artist be like a musician in subway/w/hat? |
mnapier: |
I don't know about 'should'.... |
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Right now I'd say I'm like a musician in the subway without the hat..... |
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I'm figuring out how to get a hat in here ..... |
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Most net artists are in it for the fun, the chance to shape a new medium.
It's like colonizing new territory.... |
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you can't put a price tag on it. |
Robin asks: |
Mark, on the issue of name association and reputation: as a software
developer, you've probably used code taken from others on the net, commented
it into your own code and used it to do things it wasn't originally intended
to do. |
Robin asks: |
Can you correlate that to your manipulations in the art realm? |
mnapier: |
It's like stealing an art technique, or a trick, or a medium.... |
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Painters do that sort of thing all the time. It's part of the learning
process..... |
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Good artists don't rely on tricks to create their art..... |
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The latest technical wizardry fades quickly, but a good idea can last
for centuries. ..... |
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Even in software development, staying on top of trends and creating
user-friendly software is more important than the actual code itself. |
Terry Fisher: |
Well, it's 8 pm on the east coast. Mark, you've been very generous
with your time; we should let you go. I've found this a very stimulating
discussion. Thanks very much. |
mnapier: |
I've enjoyed it. Hope my answers made some sense. Thanks again for
inviting me. |
admin: |
Thanks to all participants -- please let your teaching fellows know
your experiences. We'll see you again soon. |
Terry Fisher: |
Thanks to all the course participants for showing up... |
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We will try to arrange similar events during subsequent weeks.... |
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If you have further questions for Mark -- or merely want to thank him
-- please email them to the "feedback" icon, and we will forward them appropriately.
... |
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Good night everyone. |