| Nickname - Message |
|---|
| <ReaganH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 18:40) Hi, everybody. We're still getting things set up here at HLS. Should be starting soon. |
| <TarynF> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 18:44) hello. |
| <FranG> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 18:45) hello |
| <GeraldR> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 18:46) Hello |
| <FranG> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 18:47) is audio happening? |
| <ReaganH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 18:47) Yes, but it's low right now. |
| <DuncanM> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 18:47) I can hear it...just background noise |
| <FranG> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 18:47) I'm not hearing anything |
| <ReaganH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 18:48) I'll look into it, but check the volume on your computer as well. |
| <ReaganH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 18:51) About the audio...right now you should only be hearing background noise. If you can't hear anything when the debate starts, click on the Tech Chat link and let them know. |
| <ScottD> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 18:52) hey all |
| <ScottD> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 18:52) I can see everything just fine |
| <ReaganH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 18:52) Feel free to submit background info about yourselves in the box in the lower lefthand corner. |
| <ReaganH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 18:53) Great, dieman. Glad you can see everything. |
| <dieman> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 18:53) yes. the video is *very* clear |
| <dieman> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 18:54) and i didn't have any issues even though I am in linux. |
| <LuisV> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 18:59) two questions: |
| <LuisV> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 18:59) 1) can anyone else get video? |
| <JeremyB> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 18:59) of course |
| <LuisV> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:00) 2) what is the address of this IRC server? I'd like to log in from a non-Java client... |
| <MargotP> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:00) volume is pretty low |
| <LuisV> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:00) hrm. when I try to access the RP7 feed, I get a message that says "placeholder for a live broadcast" and no video. |
| <SylviaC> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:00) Please spell moderator's name |
| <ReaganH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:00) Zittrain |
| <Macki2600> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:01) bcis.law.harvard.edu |
| <ReaganH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:01) Luis, click on the Tech Chat link and they'll help you out. |
| <louie> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:02) ReaganH: thanks |
| <dieman> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:03) hmmm |
| <dieman> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:03) did i miss anything? |
| <paulR> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:03) best of breed? |
| <dieman> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:03) is this valenti? |
| <ReaganH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:03) yep |
| <CurtissP> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:03) If you have walkman earphones, the sound is better than speakers |
| <CurtissP> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:04) yes, we hope demolish, at least get in perspective |
| <DouglasH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:05) his memory seems to have improved since recent depositions... |
| <CurtissP> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:05) we'll see if he is more than a puppet |
| <dieman> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:05) heh |
| <dieman> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:05) yeah douglas |
| <dieman> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:06) everyone submit questions |
| <BrantF> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:06) he is a puppet, well paid to be one |
| <dieman> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:06) click on "Ask a Question" |
| <dieman> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:06) whowa |
| <dieman> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:06) he remembered something! |
| <dieman> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:06) wow |
| <DouglasH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:06) i don't believe he's a puppet. from jfk to the mpaa, he's an excellent PR man. But he's wrong on this issue |
| <dieman> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:06) he remembered something! |
| <CurtissP> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:06) perfer the simpler? |
| <dieman> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:09) 'I AM A NARC' |
| <louie> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:09) it galls me that he conveniently ignores that CD sales are higher in the past year than they ever have been. |
| <dieman> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:09) yeah |
| <dieman> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:09) 'I AM A NARC' |
| <DannyS> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:09) this "survey" of his is without any validity. |
| <dieman> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:09) yes |
| <FrancoisZ> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:09) "stealing", "stealing" |
| <dieman> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:09) its is completely anidoctial |
| <dieman> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:10) no proof |
| <DuncanM> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:10) Napster does provide an effiicent way of little-known artists to distribute their music. |
| <dieman> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:10) nothing but talk. |
| <FrancoisZ> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:10) copyright =/= property |
| <DouglasH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:10) what did Eric Corley steal? an encryption algorithm? i didn't know ideas were copyrightable. its patent was withdrawn too. |
| <FrancoisZ> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:10) infringing =/= stealing |
| <FrancoisZ> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:10) use correct vocabulaty, Jack |
| <CurtissP> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:10) yes, greedy |
| <louie> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:11) he's a slick one... I'm impressed (even if I completely disagree). |
| <CurtissP> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:11) can musical artistry survive without a "greed system?" |
| <DannyS> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:11) I'm equally impressed that a month ago he didn't even know, under oath, what any of this stuff is that he is now talking about. |
| <BrantF> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:11) Just now they organize a digital strategy department??? |
| <ScottB> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:12) survive and improve -- artists create out of need to express, not greed. |
| <DannyS> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:12) well...some artists. |
| <paulR> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:12) digital strategy department!! DSD!!! Will this be as dynamic as SDMI? |
| <dieman> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:12) hey |
| <louie> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:12) DannyS: the artists worth listening too :) |
| <ReaganH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:12) I find that interesting, too, DannyS. Someone's been doing a lot of prepping for this!' |
| <dieman> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:12) be sure to put in questions |
| <BrantF> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:12) I thought their lawyers were there digital department |
| <ReaganH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:12) Have you put in any questions, dieman??? |
| <paulR> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:12) information wants to be $16.99... |
| <DannyS> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:12) their lawyers have e-mail addresses at pacbell.net! These people don't even know how to use their own domain name! |
| <dieman> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:13) hehehe |
| <dieman> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:13) regan - two. |
| <DouglasH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:13) great, as long as (1) you don't misuse your copyright, and (2) you don't fix prices. Promise? |
| <CurtissP> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:13) ok, I am in Netscape 4, I see the video, I see this dialogue, but I don't see where to put questions |
| <dieman> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:13) regan - both conserning IP with DMCA and a new law in the House |
| <JeremyB> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:14) Curtiss- lower right corner, just under INtroduction and User Instructions |
| <louie> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:14) that's a scary vision he's painting. |
| <ReaganH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:14) Curtiss, there should be a link in the lower right corner of the screen (Ask a Question to the Assembled Group) |
| <DouglasH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:14) the only words for that... is 15 usc ss 1,2 |
| <DouglasH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:14) (sherman act) |
| <CurtissP> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:14) yes, thanks! |
| <DuncanM> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:15) Has the sound just gotten worse (less clear)? |
| <dieman> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:15) regan - these will be asked later, right? |
| <louie> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:15) yeah, he's not very clear for me either. |
| <DannyS> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:15) yeah, lessig needs a new mic. |
| <dieman> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:15) yes. someone needs to turn down the bass, and gain on lessig's mic. |
| <ReaganH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:15) Yes. |
| <AndrewB> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:15) Totally unintelligible. |
| <paulR> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:15) valenti probably brought his own sound engneer |
| <CurtissP> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:15) the sound is very hazy, use earphones |
| <DuncanM> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:16) Will there be transcripts later? I can't understand a word. |
| <DannyS> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:16) was jack? |
| <DannyS> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:16) living back then? |
| <ReaganH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:16) We're letting the tech people know about the audio problem. |
| <dieman> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:16) thanks |
| <CurtissP> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:16) increase the treble |
| <ReaganH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:17) There won't be transcripts but there will be a video cast on the Berkman Center page. |
| <CurtissP> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:17) music is a central constructor to culture |
| <louie> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:18) damn I want to go to stanford law... |
| <louie> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:18) (no offense, berkman folks ;) |
| <MargotP> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:18) louie: read his book on Code |
| <ReaganH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:18) None taken |
| <DannyS> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:18) Lessig was at Berkman for a while. |
| <ReaganH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:18) His book and articles are great! |
| <louie> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:19) MargotP: it's at my bedside. |
| <BrantF> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:19) valenti on the vcr: "the VCR is to the American film producer and the American public as the Boston Strangler is to the woman alone" |
| <DannyS> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:19) his book is expensive! I would have bought it, but it's pricey |
| <MargotP> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:19) louie: mine too |
| <louie> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:19) DannyS: oh, I know. I was disappointed that he left- it seems a shame to split away part of the braintrust that was assembling at Harvard. |
| <louie> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:19) MargotP: unfortunately not much time to finish it, but... I'm working on it :) |
| <dieman> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:19) ack |
| <dieman> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:19) video stopped |
| <dieman> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:19) there we go |
| <DannyS> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:20) louie: yeah, well, share the wealth, and all that. :-) |
| <TedS> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:20) is anyone else having problems with the sound? |
| <dieman> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:20) yes |
| <paulR> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:20) Is lessig's sound bad in the room, too? |
| <dieman> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:20) its *very* muddy |
| <MargotP> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:20) yes |
| <TedS> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:20) i can't understand a word he says |
| <RNesson> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:20) We are working on sound levels. If you are having a hard time hearing, hang in there for a minute |
| <DannyS> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:20) Maybe we need closed captioning? |
| <dieman> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:21) ow |
| <dieman> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:21) that hurt. |
| <dieman> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:21) stop that :) |
| <DannyS> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:21) ::jumps 10 feet: |
| <DuncanM> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:21) DannyS: Good idea for the next webcast. |
| <paulR> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:21) Or Garret Morris in a screen-in-screen, yelling |
| <ReaganH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:21) PaulR: it's not entirely clear in the room either. |
| <DannyS> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:21) ::laughs:: |
| <dieman> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:21) hey serge. |
| <SergeE> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:22) hey |
| <DannyS> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:22) VCR is not a "cheap shot" by Lessig, it was a "cheap shot" by the MPAA. |
| <CurtissP> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:22) that's louder, not clearer |
| <DuncanM> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:22) better |
| <dieman> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:22) thats better. |
| <DannyS> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:23) now it's distorting at higher levels. |
| <RJ11> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:23) would be nice to have closed captioning for the bandwidth impaired. |
| <CurtissP> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:23) grab some walkman earphones -- it is intelligible that way |
| <RJ11> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:23) though it's not really a bandwidth issue... |
| <dieman> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:23) heh |
| <DannyS> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:23) there is an audio only version, i think. |
| <dieman> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:23) rj11- your bandwidh impared? |
| <DannyS> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:23) for low bandwidth |
| <RJ11> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:24) no, that's why I'm saying it's not really a bandwidth issue. |
| <DannyS> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:24) my poor boston acoustic speakers are crying. |
| <RJ11> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:24) would be nice to have a higher quality stream though. |
| <SamuelM> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:25) what case? |
| <DouglasH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:25) streambox i think. |
| <DannyS> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:26) lessig should run for president. |
| <DouglasH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:26) realnetworks v. streambox -- preliminary injunction granted against some (but not all) tools to rip and convert real streams.... just like this one! |
| <DouglasH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:26) that case just settled |
| <dieman> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:27) ack. |
| <dieman> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:27) that sucks. |
| <DannyS> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:28) why is jack standing in the middle like that? |
| <louie> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:28) first he interrups, then he name drops. nice guy :) |
| <CurtissP> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:28) valenti's microphone is so much clearer |
| <dieman> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:28) yeah |
| <paulR> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:28) he's got one clipped to his jacket-- |
| <RJ11> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:29) *cough* conspiracy *cough* *cough* |
| <DouglasH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:29) in a paragraph, (1) access controls are not copyright, and (2) should have the same exceptions and limitations as copyright. |
| <FrancoisZ> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:29) the paragraph is in the constitution! |
| <CurtissP> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:29) give Lessig the same clipon mike? |
| <paulR> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:30) how about one of those Shania Twain headsets? |
| <DannyS> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:30) I can send him my $10 circuit city mic by fedex... |
| <DouglasH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:30) DMCA: you may drink water for fair use, but you may not approach the water and you may not tell others where the water is... |
| <DannyS> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:31) DMCA: We don't trust any of you, so therefore we are imposing a content dictatorship. |
| <AndrewB> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:31) no luck on the bass cut, hmm? |
| <CurtissP> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:31) yes, many innovators, not frightened by copyright |
| <paulR> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:31) dannys: great... |
| <CurtissP> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:31) He "kant" say that, can he? :) |
| <dieman> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:32) they abolished copyright for other reasons |
| <DouglasH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:32) except how may authors actually profit from MPAA licensing regimes? |
| <dieman> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:32) in those times copyright were first considered 'goverment contracts' |
| <dieman> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:32) then evolved into very badly developed monopolies |
| <paulR> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:32) with publishers, not authors |
| <RJ11> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:32) umm, the publishers shut down in paris due to the revolution |
| <RJ11> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:33) they were forced to close down by the committees, by threat of death. |
| <CurtissP> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:33) sounds like the pharmaceutical industry -- we need high profits to pay for ... |
| <DannyS> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:33) "very high fidelity video and sound" taken from a camcorder, handheld, concealed in a jacket during a premier? unlikely. |
| <DannyS> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:34) those evil europeans!!! kill!!! |
| <ToddS> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:34) How does the price of production for a movie affect the actual right to copyright? Should expensive works of art somehow have more protection than others? |
| <RJ11> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:34) this whole DVD thing is pathetic. |
| <RJ11> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:34) how is this any different than zeroxing a newspaper? |
| <FrancoisZ> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:35) (or memorizing a poem...)( |
| <AdamS> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:35) because no one xeroxes an infinite number of copies of newspapers |
| <RJ11> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:35) sure, it'll work and make you a copy, but it'll cost you a lot more the make a copy of similar quality to the original |
| <RJ11> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:36) s/the/to |
| <DannyS> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:36) we're not talking about copies here. lessig already said he was against illegal copying. |
| <CurtissP> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:36) Dison is that anti-copyright? When did she say that? |
| <RJ11> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:36) well is that not the purpose behind these insane copyright laws? |
| <ReaganH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:36) Also, the quality of xeroxed newspapers is diminished; digital copies are pure. |
| <RJ11> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:37) ReaganH: you're missing the point. |
| <DouglasH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:37) Uh, digital copies put through mp3 or mp4 are certainly degraded from the pure digital version |
| <RJ11> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:37) and also, the quality isn't the same when you bring a camcorder into a theater.. |
| <DannyS> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:37) same with compressed video streams... |
| <DannyS> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:37) but that is still not the point. |
| <ReaganH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:37) point taken. |
| <dieman> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:37) there we go. |
| <DouglasH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:37) does the MPAA / DVDCCA "own" the DVD player industry? |
| <DannyS> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:38) we're talking about making (c) laws shorter. you don't need 70 years to make your money back on a movie. |
| <dieman> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:38) haha |
| <DannyS> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:38) yes, the DVD-CCA does "own" the industry. |
| <dieman> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:38) other camera. |
| <DannyS> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:38) well, i guess you would need 70 years for Waterworld... |
| <dieman> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:38) other camera. |
| <DouglasH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:38) DannyS isn't it the other way around? |
| <RJ11> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:38) hahahaha |
| <DannyS> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:39) DouglasH: no, the major studios own the DVD-CCA, the DVD-CCA licenses the DVD player code to the DVD player manufacturers. Therefore, they own the DVD industry. |
| <RJ11> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:39) it costs a few thousand dollars to buy a license to make a DVD player. |
| <RJ11> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:39) I heard something like $20k |
| <dieman> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:39) nheh |
| <DannyS> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:39) plus you must agree to the restrictions. |
| <RJ11> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:39) which goes directly to the DVD-CCA |
| <DouglasH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:40) the DVD-CCA (Toshiba et al) or the MPAA, who's the real slim shadey? |
| <dieman> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:40) rj11- did you see my france rebuttle in the questions? |
| <RJ11> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:40) no? |
| <BobN> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:40) quit |
| <dieman> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:41) i just kinda threw up what i remember of the reveloution |
| <CurtissP> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:43) yes, what did Sony Bono know about copyright? |
| <DannyS> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:44) i just looked it up: Valenti is right about Euro copyright law under the EU> |
| <DannyS> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:45) actualy, there is a lot more IP then valenti stated... |
| <paulR> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:45) he did well with Jerry Lewis |
| <LevM> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:45) Is the US really supreme in the world in the arena of books? |
| <CurtissP> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:46) "yes, our copyrighted culture gets to destroy the cultures of other nations, wonderful |
| <DannyS> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:46) how many us books to they teach in schools? |
| <JohnI> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:46) probably |
| <DannyS> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:46) hardly any |
| <dieman> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:46) curtissp - hehe |
| <JeremyB> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:46) "music, movies, and microcode"... oh, and high-speed pizza delivery. |
| <aronC> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:46) by volume of sales, yeah |
| <nobodyN> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:46) thank god for the movie industry..... they're saving our economy =p |
| <RJ11> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:46) curtissp: well I mean, we've already finished pollutiing this culture..... |
| <DannyS> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:46) Jeremy: hehe |
| <DannyS> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:47) pizza delivery isn't copyrighted, though |
| <jgJ> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:47) i wish valenti would answer the question on the inconsistency between retroactive copyright privileges and the american tradition of copyrights. |
| <aronC> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:47) yeah, really. |
| <DannyS> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:47) I still don't understand why Valenti is standing in the middle. |
| <JeremyB> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:48) It's a sort of power play |
| <paulR> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:48) He's pulling a Lazio! He's invading Lessig's space! |
| <DouglasH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:48) classic debate strategy, it gives him the dominant and natural position for the debate. like i said, the quinticential PR man |
| <DuncanM> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:48) What is the case Lessig is speaking of? |
| <SylviaC> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:48) It seems to me that the issue is fair compensation for work or goods. I don't think they are addressing downstream detail not upstream fundamentals. |
| <DouglasH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:48) "substantial noninfringing use" |
| <paulR> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:48) NApster |
| <DouglasH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:49) no, valenti is protected by access controls on his lapel-mic |
| <dieman> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:49) lets thwack you with a betamax tape and get this part over with. |
| <RJ11> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:49) haha |
| <DannyS> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:49) hey, i just realized that this webcast has been slashdotted! expect the video quality to go downhill... |
| <JeremyB> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:49) roflmao |
| <dieman> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:49) awwmotherfuck |
| <RJ11> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:50) idiots. |
| <RJ11> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:50) they should have waited to post it until it was over. |
| <jgJ> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:50) but information wants to be free! |
| <DanH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:50) clearly a few viewers forgot to take their medication... |
| <JeremyB> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:50) Hey, I found out about this in a slashdot comment |
| <jgJ> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:51) mmm.... grits... |
| <jgJ> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:51) whoa the moderator almost took back his podium! |
| <RJ11> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:51) haha |
| <jgJ> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:51) i can't believe valenti ran for president once. |
| <RJ11> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:51) I can see this being made into one of those "fun with real audio" cartoons that they have on snl |
| <DouglasH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:52) yes yes yes he said the magic words! |
| <jgJ> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:52) the lowly VCR as a time machine... |
| <DouglasH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:53) RIAA v. Diamond Multimedia (Rio case) -- space shifting OK too! |
| <DannyS> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:53) eww... |
| <DouglasH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:53) Wait... there's a thing called a "library." |
| <aronC> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:53) oh boy.. yeah.. lets outlaw anything the courts don't explicitly GIVE us the right to do. |
| <RJ11> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:53) god bless america.. |
| <bahB> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:54) whos winning |
| <DannyS> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:54) valenti is acting stupid again. |
| <jgJ> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:54) i don't think he's acting. |
| <paulR> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:54) and badly reasoned, and written.... |
| <aronC> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:54) =) |
| <nobodyN> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:54) heh |
| <CurtissP> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:55) Valenti's no one's fool |
| <DouglasH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:55) the valenti method: charm >> reason, money >> the public good |
| <JeremyN> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:55) what seems weird to me is that valenti naturally speaks loud enough that he doesn't need to stay by his mic... |
| <ReaganH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:56) Is anyone out there pro-Valenti? |
| <DouglasH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:56) yes! the amnesia returns |
| <aronC> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:56) nope |
| <RJ11> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:56) JeremyN: he has a clip-on |
| <Darkseer> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:56) Who defines legitimate? |
| <JeremyN> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:56) aww. (shrug) |
| <jgJ> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:56) legitimate, adj: when you buy something from the RIAA or MPAA but retain no rights for its use. |
| <DuncanM> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:56) companies. They assert that RecordTV operator David Simon "willingly and knowingly has built a business based on offering its customers access to valuable stolen property," according to a statement by Jack Valenti, president and CEO of the Motion Picture Association of America. |
| <DannyS> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:56) yeah, there has been some speculation that he brought his own sound engineer just so that he could walk around... |
| <aronC> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:57) lol! |
| <dfsdfS> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:57) hmm i cannot access the stream |
| <DouglasH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:57) darkseer: the courts do, or congress, or the excecutive branch through rulemaking, or the mpaa through shrink-wrap licenses. In short, everyone except you. |
| <DannyS> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:57) hehe |
| <DuncanM> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:57) He forgot that he said that, however. |
| <DannyS> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:57) DuncanM: post that to the question forum. |
| <CurtissP> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:57) I've heard Lessig be more coherent than this |
| <dfsdfS> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:57) anyone having trouble? |
| <DannyS> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:57) CurtissP: it's hard to hear lessig period! |
| <jgJ> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:57) why is lessig giving more airtime to valenti? |
| <DouglasH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:58) I'm surprised too that lessig is so muted, both literally and figuratively. |
| <DannyS> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:58) dfsdfS: the stream is limited, i believe, to a certain number estimated by the sign-ups yesterday. |
| <Dan> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:58) I like Valenti. He walks around more and is therefore more appealing to my MTV-ized attention span. :) |
| <dfsdfS> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:58) doh |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:58) Uhh...which channel has the interview? |
| <dfsdfS> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:58) i cant see it =/ |
| <dfsdfS> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:58) damn |
| <joeU> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:58) yeah, there damn server has not enough streams... |
| <DannyS> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:58) Dan: he has a wireless mic, lessig doesn't. |
| <CurtissP> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:58) I have to press the earphones against my ears to make out 3/4's of what he says |
| <dfsdfS> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:58) is there any way i can see a live transcript |
| <DouglasH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:58) Why isn't lessig arguing the biggest points, instead of arguing that copyright should be rewritten |
| <nobodyN> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:58) let's not think for ourselves, let the courts think for us..... |
| <DannyS> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:58) dfsdfS: not until the next debate. |
| <Darkseer> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:58) The courts are punishing the technology, not the ppl |
| <mobydisk> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:58) Yea, a transcript would be awesome. Can anybody who is getting the stream type fast enough? |
| <jgJ> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:59) this makes me want to go to harvard law school. nah, i'd rather go to nyu. ;) |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:59) No live transcript?!?!? Man...lame |
| <Darkseer> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:59) I think this is the fundamental flaw in this court decision |
| <dfsdfS> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:59) the courts are pretty minamalist right now.. i wouldn't expect anything big to come out of them as far as copyright goes |
| <mobydisk> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:59) You can put your hand down now. |
| <CurtissP> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:59) that microphone is clearer |
| <DuncanM> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 19:59) I would vote that a transcript after this would be extremely valuable. |
| <DannyS> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:00) is jack addressing us? |
| <HerbertH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:00) ? he is loved now? |
| <CurtissP> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:00) have Zitrain give his mike to Lessig |
| <ReaganH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:00) I'll pass that on, DuncanM. |
| <dfsdfS> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:00) like if they were all actvists and stuff you might see them upholding mp3 and embracing it and stuff |
| <DouglasH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:00) Eric Corley in person! |
| <Darkseer> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:00) Was he ever? |
| <joeU> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:00) they seem to be trying to serve the webcast with a single T1 for 50000 persons... |
| <DuncanM> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:00) Thanks, ReaganH |
| <jgJ> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:00) no one looks dumber than one whose flowery rhetoric is put on paper. |
| <ImreS> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:00) I also would like to see a transcript after the event! |
| <JeremyN> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:00) ack... stream breaking up.... |
| <DouglasH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:00) i'm getting it at 60kbs |
| <CaseyE> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:00) my stream's working okay |
| <DouglasH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:00) what did corley steal? |
| <DannyS> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:00) i'm getting 25.5kb, instead of my initial 80kb |
| <Dan> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:01) I'm getting 80k, no problems. |
| <dfsdfS> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:01) hey at least you people are getting a stream ;) |
| <joeU> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:01) I would like a downloadable video after the event... |
| <mobydisk> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:01) yea! :) |
| <FrancoisZ> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:01) intermittent here, we NEED a transcript |
| <CaseyE> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:01) just keep trying to get in.. it took me six tries. |
| <dfsdfS> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:01) someone tell me what is going on |
| <Darkseer> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:01) As long as I get the sound, Its not like this is being moderated by supermodels |
| <joeU> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:01) yeah, but quality sucks |
| <CurtissP> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:01) yes, contributable negligence |
| <mobydisk> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:01) Okay, Valentini is punching Lessig. Oh my god, it's a brawl! The MPAA spokesman is on the top ropes! |
| <dfsdfS> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:01) hah |
| <CaseyE> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:02) hehe |
| <DannyS> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:02) gee, it doesn't sound like that moby... |
| <Omnifarious> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:02) Where are they talking? |
| <paulR> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:02) I'm giving Corley a standing ovation here in my room..... |
| <CurtissP> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:02) The Concorde folk have sued Continental for a piece of metal on the runway |
| <DouglasH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:02) out of their mouths, except for jack valenti |
| <joeU> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:02) looks to me like aol modems... you get thrown out after some time so that you don't think they don't have enough modems |
| <DannyS> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:02) so are they, paulR |
| <Darkseer> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:03) Trying to pass the buck |
| <DannyS> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:03) if you "cannot circumvent encryption", then why do we need it in the first place. |
| <jgJ> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:03) i really wish i could violate the DMCA. but it has no asshole. |
| <DouglasH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:03) jack valenti doesn't have a vote in congress, he has hundreds |
| <joeU> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:03) oups, netsplit |
| <Darkseer> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:03) Encryption is not law it is mathmatical premis |
| <HerbertH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:03) douglash: *grin* |
| <DannyS> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:03) jgJ, calm down. |
| <jgJ> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:04) sorry. |
| <DannyS> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:04) :-) |
| <bahB> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:04) anyone need a copy of decss |
| <paulR> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:04) Go to Congress, like the MPAA did, with a gazillion dineros |
| <DannyS> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:04) jack skips commercials with his remote - he is violating the DMCA!!! |
| <jgJ> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:04) thanks to the MPAA DeCSS is one of the easiest pieces of information to find now. |
| <Dan> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:04) "American People" == MPAA, right? |
| <DannyS> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:04) or at least, he will be soon, when DMCA 2.0 passes |
| <joeU> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:04) http://sxpert.dyndns.org/decss |
| <CurtissP> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:05) Lessig needs to move up a level, he needs to appeal to what Seymour Papert talks about when new technology brings new uses that are unexpected, unless they are squelched by existing law |
| <DanielF> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:05) does the MPAA have any good points? (sorry, no stream for me....it's too busy). Personally I think they are being just as smart as they were during the whole vhs deal. |
| <DanielF> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:05) or I guess to clarify....they're being just as short sighted as they were on the vhs deal |
| <mobydisk> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:06) Agreed. Those who do not study history... |
| <Omnifarious> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:06) I can't get a stream either. |
| <Omnifarious> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:06) Linux, and I refuse to install RealPlayer. |
| <DouglasH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:06) free as in code, not free as in beer, ha ha ha |
| <joeU> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:06) the right of authors, or the right of studios to make money on the back of filmmakers, just like the Music studios ? |
| <DannyS> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:06) lessig is introducing jack to free beer vs. free speech |
| <DannyS> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:06) ooh, douglas beat me to it! |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:06) bah, use of "free" in the code-vs-beer context is *meant* to confuse |
| <DouglasH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:06) i get the copyright, you get sued! |
| <mobydisk> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:06) When the VHS stuff was going on, were they as vocal as they are now? Lawsuits and copy protection and all the like? |
| <BrantF> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:06) yes, they fought VCRs to the supreme court |
| <mobydisk> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:07) What was the decision? (obviously we know the end result, but at the time was the court on their side at all?) |
| <mobydisk> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:07) Why do they not see that this is the same thing? |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:07) Tapes got taxed |
| <MattK> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:07) no, they didn't. |
| <mobydisk> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:07) taxed? |
| <BrantF> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:07) 5 to 4. Sony ws the lead plaintiff. Tapes were taxed later. |
| <mobydisk> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:07) Not in the US. |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:07) Oh |
| <mobydisk> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:08) The only thing I know of being taxed, is my patience with the MPAA. |
| <jgJ> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:08) valenti is evading the question again. |
| <nobodyN> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:08) it's different 'cause your vcd doesn't let you run an ftp server where you can share the movie you coppied =p |
| <HerbertH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:08) preach on brother lessig! |
| <Dan> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:08) Is this why the actors are preparing to go on strike?? |
| <BrantF> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:08) Sorry, Sony was the defendant (VCR maker) |
| <mobydisk> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:08) nobody: agreed. The difference is scale. |
| <MattK> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:08) DAT tapes were taxed, AFAIK VHS are not in the USA. |
| <mobydisk> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:08) Dan: strike? |
| <joeU> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:08) well said, mobydisk |
| <Omnifarious> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:08) DATs are taxed. |
| <Omnifarious> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:08) So are CD burners. |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:08) Dan, it's about commercials, not copyright |
| <Omnifarious> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:08) RIAA tax. |
| <jackD> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:08) hello |
| <MattK> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:08) bingo |
| <mobydisk> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:08) The funny thing is that scale is what can help them make money, or to lose it. It is their choice. |
| <Dan> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:09) Oh, my mistake. |
| <DouglasH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:09) sony v. univ studios, see http://laws.findlaw.com/us/464/417.html |
| <mobydisk> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:09) Scale helps them just make more, or lose more. |
| <joeU> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:09) yes, right |
| <DouglasH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:09) that's the betamax case |
| <mobydisk> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:09) doug: Thanx for the link. |
| <DouglasH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:09) no prob |
| <bahB> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:09) mpaa just wants a monopoly on dvd market thats all plain and simple |
| <joeU> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:09) yes the RIAA are a state inside the state... that's what the french revolution was about... |
| <SylviaC> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:10) Question: Lessig spoke of perversion of language. I see that in other debates, where words have odd and paradoxical new meanings. Would Lessig speak to that in a broader social context, in the context of communication and how it has changed? |
| <joeU> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:10) the MPAA too |
| <Omnifarious> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:10) Anybody know any honest to goodness musicians who are actually good? :-) |
| <DouglasH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:10) the money comes from the control of distribution, it keeps prices high. |
| <jgJ> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:10) omni: radiohead |
| <jackD> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:10) omni what do you mean? |
| <joeU> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:10) yes, but monopolies are illegal |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:10) bahb, I thought the MPAA had a monopoly on the DVD market already :) |
| <DouglasH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:10) Omni: yup, Beethoven, Chopin... |
| <firstL> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:10) who is the george washington looking guy |
| <jackD> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:10) radiohead is an excellent band |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:10) joeu, no their not...not in the US anyway |
| <Omnifarious> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:10) *nod* |
| <philipI> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:10) Someone once mentioned to me that "parameters" and "attributes" of music are not copyrightable. Does anyone know what is meant with that? thx -[p] |
| <Omnifarious> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:10) I meant actual musicians personally. |
| <aronC> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:10) please bring up the fact that the DMCA destroyes the limited time clause!!! |
| <DouglasH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:10) firstL: george W is Jack Valenti, head of the MPAA and former aid to John F. Kennedy |
| <MattK> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:10) the MPAA and RIAA simple, don't want to change their business model, they want to protect the business model they have. |
| <mobydisk> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:10) phil: I would guess the title, genre, artist name... |
| <Dan> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:11) good music: http://youngblood.brassband.com/ |
| <joeU> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:11) Mozart |
| <firstL> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:11) that's valenti? looks different than other pictures I've seen. |
| <mobydisk> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:11) phil: Like copyrighting the "look and feel" of an OS is not allowed. |
| <patrickG> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:11) this is lame. |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:11) philipi, probably the 12 note scale and such |
| <DouglasH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:11) -every court?- there's only been one |
| <aronC> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:11) If you can't decrypt any of the copies, it isn't in the public domain |
| <joeU> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:11) firstL that seems to be Valenti, the old idiot with white hair |
| <mobydisk> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:11) rmah: I patented that years ago. |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:11) moby, heh |
| <mobydisk> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:11) rmah: that and hyperlinking |
| <CmdrT> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:11) the audio sounds like shit |
| <FrancoisZ> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:11) given TO THE AUTHORS for a limited time. Hence, not after they die. |
| <CmdrT> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:11) what are they saying? |
| <DouglasH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:11) it seems that the DMCA, as interpreted by the MPAA, constitutes copyright misuse. |
| <RJ11> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:11) blah fux0r |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:11) Do it first, you can patent it |
| <joeU> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:12) argh, the sound sucks |
| <RJ11> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:12) CmdrT: "shit" is a relative term. it sounds a lot better than it did before. |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:12) The "obvious" criteria is no longer used as it requires judgement by the examiners. |
| <DouglasH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:12) and valenti claims ignorance when he can't answer... |
| <CmdrT> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:12) what was the joke |
| <joeU> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:12) hey, man, get closer to your damn mike |
| <CmdrT> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:12) i oculdnt understand |
| <paulR> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:12) where'd Corely go? |
| <aronC> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:12) Where can you submit a question? |
| <Omnifarious> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:12) I'm looking for musicians. I want to destroy the MPAAs business model. |
| <Omnifarious> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:12) Render it obsolete. |
| <BrunoM> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:13) do you guys think freenet will ever suceed in making a functional and user friendly app (that acctually searches the whole network) to the masses? |
| <firstL> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:13) cmdrt: are you the slashdot cmdrt? |
| <mobydisk> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:13) Come up with a format that allows mass storage of video on CDs... Whoops! We got that - DIVX! Who needs DVD? |
| <paulR> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:13) Who picked that question? |
| <DouglasH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:13) rmah: obviousness is now just whether, from prior -written- materials, whether one of ordinary skill in the art would be motivated to do what the patent says. |
| <ElJ> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:13) Where can you simply listen in....? I was told it was busy |
| <CmdrT> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:13) hey where do we enter questions? |
| <ReaganH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:13) Submit a question by clicking on the link in the lower right corner of the screen (Ask a Question to the Assembled Group) |
| <mobydisk> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:13) obviousness is in proportion to intelligence. |
| <DanH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:13) Ben. Ben runs the world. |
| <CmdrT> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:13) can we ask questions? |
| <RJ11> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:13) CmdrT: you click the link that says "Ask a question" |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:13) douglas, interviews with the Patent Office chief show that they they don't use "obvious" anymore |
| <mobydisk> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:13) I don't think questions apply to a live debate. |
| <joeU> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:13) yes, then Courtney Love would be your musitian |
| <philipI> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:13) thx for the answers on attributes/parameters of music. Apart from artist, titles etc.. could that include "technical" aspects of music e.g. measuring pitch, tempo, beat etc and using that data? thx |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:14) His answer to all questions of obviousness are, "show me the prior art" |
| <DuncanM> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:14) CmdT: Commander Taco? |
| <mobydisk> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:14) oh, that link. :) |
| <mobydisk> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:14) talk about obviousness. |
| <mobydisk> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:14) CmdT: Commander Taco? (seconded) |
| <DouglasH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:14) its 35 usc 103, and it certaintly is used, its just construed in a very technical way. you prove it through writings, not through common sense |
| <RJ11> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:14) no, that link does something else..... |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:14) what's the name or IP of this IRC server |
| <joeU> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:14) CmdrT : yeah, right... |
| <CmdrT> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:14) that fags funny |
| <dieman> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:14) Malda Sucks! |
| <RJ11> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:14) haha |
| <CmdrT> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:15) no its not me |
| <jgJ> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:15) oh great. this is what happens when /. comes into a discussion |
| <jgJ> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:15) well maybe i'm just as guilty |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:15) slashdot discussion? haha more like a one sided stream of invective |
| <CmdrT> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:15) $port |
| <CmdrT> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:15) is someone nuking us |
| <mobydisk> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:16) Reading that link I got from Doug: http://caselaw.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=464&invol=417 |
| <JeremyN> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:16) ack.... here's the slashdottage |
| <CmdrT> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:16) what are they talkking about? |
| <firstL> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:16) how about you watch and listen? |
| <mobydisk> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:16) IT's the old VHS debate.. very nice. very relevant. |
| <RJ11> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:16) intellectual property law.... |
| <RJ11> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:16) *smack* |
| <BrunoM> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:16) firstL: it' full, that' why |
| <DouglasH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:16) valenti evades any loss by claiming ignorance when it becomes an issue |
| <firstL> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:16) didn't realize you could get into the chat without seeing the video, too |
| <mobydisk> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:17) Two key points were made then by the supreme court. 1) Companies that create devices for recording are not liable for the recordings made on them. 2) Copying for home use is legit. |
| <DouglasH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:17) fight fight fight! |
| <aronC> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:17) doug: Just like the 2600 trial |
| <HerbertH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:17) why is it whenever he gets asked a good question, valenti says he doesn't have enough knowledge of the issue?! |
| <mobydisk> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:17) doug: Good technique. So if he is ignorant, why is he here? |
| <CmdrT> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:17) theyre talking about how bars dont have to pay royalties for music |
| <mobydisk> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:17) Cmdt: interesting. |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:17) isn't valenti the RIAA's general council? |
| <CmdrT> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:17) theyre yelling!!! |
| <mobydisk> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:17) never thought of that. |
| <joeU> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:17) let the guy speak, ... |
| <firstL> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:18) yeah, valenti is a frigging puppet of the mpaa; he conveniently only knows what they say he knows. |
| <DouglasH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:18) no valenti is the long time head of the Motion Picture Ass'n of America. He's an excellent PR man and rhetorician |
| <firstL> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:18) valenti is no lawyer. |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:18) Oh...well then. |
| <DouglasH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:18) but he's about as good for the free flow of information as bill gates... |
| <Omnifarious> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:18) VHS is kind of irrelevant here. |
| <DouglasH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:18) no offense to either |
| <garryA> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:18) Bill G is an american hero, isn't he???!! |
| <Omnifarious> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:18) This is a whole nother ball game. |
| <davidU> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:18) Vallenti is worse than hillary rosen, I know them both, he is a tool. |
| <joeU> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:18) Valenti looks like a crook... |
| <DouglasH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:18) heros can still violate the law |
| <RJ11> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:18) well he's all for the free flow of information if and only if that'll make him more money than making it proprietary... |
| <firstL> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:18) david: you know them both? |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:18) He's just doing his job |
| <CmdrT> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:18) have they talked about if DeCSS on backups? |
| <davidU> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:19) yeah |
| <mobydisk> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:19) rj11: true. |
| <Darkseer> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:19) What ever happened to civil disobedience....should we not do that either....? |
| <DuncanM> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:19) This is not discussion on Bill Gates. We don't want to get into that with the Slashdot corwd here, trust me. |
| <IvanP> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:19) hi people |
| <bobV> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:19) wil they archive the webcast video? |
| <DouglasH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:19) he's for the free flow of information through only their distribution channel; with antitrust and copyright misuse all over it |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:19) ah a real irc client, much better |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:19) darkseer, part of civil disobedience is taking the punishment with pride |
| <GregF> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:19) I sure as hell hope so |
| <vbnvF> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:19) greets |
| <CRC> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:19) damn - server busy? |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:19) no punishment, no civil disobedience |
| <DuncanM> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:19) bobv: We are trying to get a written transcript... |
| <bobV> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:19) server way busy |
| <GregF> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:19) of course, it's in the process of being slashdotted |
| <mobydisk> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:19) CRC: Very busy. # of people keeps increasing. |
| <ReaganH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:20) The webcast video will be on the Berkman Center page. |
| <JoelM> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:20) keep retrying, i got in after a few tries |
| <garryA> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:20) This video sucks. I'm getting one frame about every 10 secs. |
| <bobV> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:20) I'll probably just get it later |
| <Darkseer> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:20) Right, I have no problem with that but it is agianst the law so he is advocating it shouldn't be done..... |
| <mobydisk> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:20) Streaming text is fine. Audio is unnecessary. |
| <IamBillG> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:20) i couldn't even get the feed |
| <JoelM> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:20) from my .edu, the stream is beautiful |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:20) webcast? is this debate taped? or just online chat |
| <CRC> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:20) MPAA can go suck me.... |
| <CmdrT> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:20) im gettine 40kb/s |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:20) crc, they do...every day |
| <RJ11> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:20) CRC: this accomplishes....? |
| <bobV> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:21) valenti certainly seems to know a hell of a lot more than he did in his 2600 deposition; if he didn't perjure himself in the 3 or 4 actual comments he made I'll eat my computer |
| <DannyS> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:21) CRC: what does that have to do with anything? |
| <SharonR> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:21) Hello |
| <CRC> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:21) well what purpose do they serve? |
| <DannyS> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:21) bobY: that has been commented on a loat. |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:21) bobv, can you think of any examples off the top of your head? |
| <DannyS> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:21) rmah: he stated he didn't know what hte DVD-CCA is. |
| <DouglasH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:21) the questioner has summed up the issue perfectly... |
| <bobV> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:21) how about the "do you know Hoy" questions? |
| <CmdrT> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:22) its like listening to a low quality mp3 |
| <Darkseer> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:22) Unseen consequences |
| <CmdrT> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:22) ahhahaha |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:22) DouglasH, and for those of us unable to see the webcast? |
| <SharonR> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:22) bobv, Hoy questions? |
| <JamesN> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:22) FIRE! |
| <JamesN> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:22) did it work? |
| <CRC> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:22) CmdrT = Commander Taco? |
| <CmdrT> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:22) i wrote that fire in a crowded theatre thing as an example of how freedom of speech is not absolute back in a 1992 lincoln douglass debate |
| <aB> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:22) so is there a sun plugin for whatever this broadcast uses? |
| <IvanP> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:22) sigh |
| <bobV> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:22) personal opinion: he's so crooked he makes a slinky look straight |
| <CmdrT> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:22) no |
| <DannyS> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:22) nah, but it was illegal JamesN. |
| <louie> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:23) does he even realize that he just compared DeCSS to killing people? |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:23) 1992? |
| <CmdrT> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:23) yeah its just funny he brought it uyp |
| <DannyS> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:23) aB: it's real audio |
| <CmdrT> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:23) great minds think alike |
| <IvanP> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:23) you would think harvard would have enough bandwidth for all of us... |
| <CRC> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:23) hehe - nothing can prepare for the /. effect ;) |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:23) This is Harvard Law...pretty seperate |
| <FrancoisZ> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:23) harvard's bandwith is for napster! |
| <MattK> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:23) he're wrong about being able to show any video. |
| <garryA> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:24) How much bandwidth does /. have? |
| <jgJ> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:24) i can take a dvd from the library but i can't play it on my linux box. |
| <IvanP> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:24) lol... i think harvard law would share the same connection |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:24) ivanp, doubtful, but it's more likely it's a licensing issue with their streamers |
| <joeU> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:24) Valenti : "I wrote the DMCA, with my friends of the RIAA, now, buzz off..." |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:24) ivanP, maybe, maybe not |
| <Darkseer> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:24) LOL |
| <MattK> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:24) He forgot about region encoding...my german class can't play german DVDs in a US dvd player. |
| <RJ11> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:24) can the slashdot kiddies please keep it down while the rest of us listen and comment on the actual debate/ |
| <RJ11> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:24) ? |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:24) heh |
| <DuncanM> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:24) What's is Valenti's definition of 'fair use'? |
| <IvanP> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:24) RJ11 is inferior to RJ45's :P |
| <TimM> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:24) haha rj11 you ass. why don't you relax a bit. |
| <ChaseH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:24) okaay... |
| <vbnvF> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:25) dude behind the podium needs to spit the turn out of his mouth |
| <JoelM> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:25) "i don't have any idea what you're talking about" |
| <DannyS> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:25) there are other places to discuss slashdot, other IRC rooms.... we are here for this... |
| <DouglasH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:25) you'd think valenti would have a better argument than ignorance whenever a good point is made against him |
| <vbnvF> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:25) dude behind the podium needs to spit the turd out of his mouth |
| <DamienS> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:25) I cant see/hear the stream either |
| <TimM> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:25) dannys ah big deal we can still see what other people type =) |
| <CRC> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:25) TX owns joo all ;) |
| <IvanP> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:25) slashdot is superior to you stuck up harvard peeps :P |
| <joeU> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:25) Valenti : everything has to follow MY definition of fair use... that is you're not allowed to use dvd the way you want, just the way WE want... |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:26) ivanp, /. is full of morons |
| <DouglasH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:26) the stream will be archived, apparently |
| <CRC> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:26) IvanP: two points for you ;) |
| <dieman> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:26) hahaha |
| <vbnvF> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:26) I love thSpartacus |
| <Omnifarious> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:26) *sigh* |
| <dieman> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:26) yes |
| <dieman> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:26) sigh. |
| <PaulF> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:26) does anyone know the capacity on the streaming video? |
| <Omnifarious> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:26) I'm a Slashdot person myself. |
| <TimM> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:26) valenti needs a philly blunt. |
| <DouglasH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:26) valenti has already said that a linux dvd player is a violation of the DMCA access circumvention provisions |
| <Omnifarious> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:26) But I'm kinda embarassed now. |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:26) has anyone here ever heard the concept of moderation? |
| <DuncanM> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:26) It's great if the stream is archived. Doesn't help the fact I can't hear Lessig |
| <SharonR> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:26) Well, i'd like to know what's happening, but i give up. i can't get the stream at all. |
| <Dan> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:27) Who's the moderator? |
| <jgJ> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:27) i turned down the 100hz band and below on my EQ and lessig comes out much clearer. |
| <coo> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:27) everyone with slashdot just type /join slashdot |
| <CRC> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:27) DeCSS is about information for the people... What the people want, is what the people will get. No law will stop people getting what they want... |
| <Phokus> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:27) anyone know if this is on radio? |
| <DouglasH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:27) Zittrain, harvard cyberlaw prof |
| <Phokus> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:27) or perhaps this is being streamed through shoutcast? |
| <DouglasH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:27) why didn't cspan broadcast this? |
| <JamesN> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:28) they couldnt connect to the server |
| <DuncanM> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:28) It's not a governmental debate. Court TV could show it. |
| <DouglasH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:28) hehehe |
| <CRC> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:28) ehhe |
| <DouglasH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:28) cspan shows debates like this all the time |
| <CRC> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:29) DeCSS kinda like the PSX piracy... Every time the copy protection changed, it took 2 weeks for a new patch/modchip... |
| <DuncanM> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:29) So, the basic contention is between whether to producers of technology which has the possibility in aid in the violation of copyright laws is, in itself, legal or not? |
| <RJ11> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:29) uh oh, here he goes again "I'm not sure I can answer that, so I'll reiterate one of my previous points" |
| <CRC> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:29) if people want to do something, you can't stop them through litigation... |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:29) crc, sure you can |
| <DannyS> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:29) CRC: have you ever heard of jail? |
| <SylviaC> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:29) Valenti is positioning his arguement in yesterday's language and values. |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:29) crc, bull |
| <RJ11> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:30) jail doesn't stop people. |
| <RJ11> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:30) they have to do the thing to go to jail... |
| <Phokus> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:30) it's time government started to change the rules, corporations are getting too powerful |
| <CRC> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:30) Are you going to put 10 maybe 20 thousand people in jail? |
| <DouglasH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:30) duncan-basically, that's it. if circumventing an access control has a substantial noninfringing use, is circumvention (regardless of intent or authority to view the movie) itself illegal |
| <jgJ> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:30) the dmca is an unjust law, and deserves to be broken. |
| <RJ11> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:30) jail happens afterwards. |
| <DannyS> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:30) it stops them from acting again... |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:30) jr11, sure slows them down :) |
| <Denny> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:30) RJ11, the guy is a coward |
| <CRC> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:30) Are you going to put 10 maybe 20 thousand people in jail? |
| <DamienS> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:30) Just do your piracy in a country where the law doesnt stop you |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:30) crc, why not 100k or 200k people? |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:30) they dont have to put every single person in jail |
| <DuncanM> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:30) What is Valenti's definition of fair use? He keeps throwing out that he believes in it. Am I missing his core definition of that? |
| <CRC> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:30) then you might have covered one state... |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:30) that's what so many slashdotters fail to realize |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:30) America jails more people than ANY other industrialized nation |
| <JeremyB> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:30) Why not? we have more people in prison than China? |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:30) We put LOTS of people in jail |
| <Phokus> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:30) isn't reverse engineering legal? |
| <Omnifarious> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:30) Copyright is becoming an unjust law when applied at the consumer level. |
| <coo> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:30) putting people in jail is merely a deterrent |
| <CurtissP> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:31) Fair Use -- see Section 107 of the 1976 Copyright Act -- well spelled out |
| <DannyS> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:31) Valenti said in teh 2600 deposition that fair use can be accomplished by getting the VHS video, since the DVD doesn't allow it. Right from the horse's mouth. |
| <coo> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:31) they dont want to put everyone in jail |
| <bahB> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:31) what happens when someone finds a exploit for say Internet Explorer does Microsoft go after the people who found the exploit.. no they fix it... |
| <DouglasH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:31) well, if the majority of college students use napster, and copying more than 3 to 5 copyrighted works is a federal crime (it is, the NET act, even if not for $), then just turn american colleges into de facto federal jails, and make the students work at prison wages for the movie industry. |
| <coo> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:31) they want to put 20 people in jail and as a result 5000 people will be deterred |
| <MattK> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:31) higher percentage of people in jail in the USA than any other country |
| <dieman> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:31) sometimes i wonder if valenti is an abstraction layer between us and the Real Guy whos coming up with these Use laws |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:31) douglash, haha...good idea! |
| <JamesN> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:31) his idea of fair use seems to be watching his movies on an approved video player, thats all that you should be able to do with a movie you pay $26 for |
| <DouglasH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:32) when you pay an additional $4 for each viewing of the movie, $1 per pause, fastforward, or rewind, $2.50 to skip commercials |
| <DouglasH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:32) and $3 per viewer in your household |
| <CRC> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:32) exactly - they already have the money you paid... |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:32) meanwhile it never even occurs to some that the modern interpretation of "fair use" excludes some legitimate products from ever being created |
| <coo> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:32) hes running the "Its for the author" shit |
| <CRC> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:32) all because they want market control... |
| <bahB> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:33) what happens if you bought/rent a dvd movie and stream it to all your friends instead of having them come over and hang at your house... is that fair use ? |
| <Phokus> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:33) so how do you guys feel about those bastard record companies suing mp3.com over their storage service (keep in mind you had to prove you owned the music you uploaded)? |
| <MattK> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:33) they simply want to protect the business model they have, screw the consumer and ignore any technology. |
| <DouglasH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:33) are the MPAA authors, or publishers? how many authors get royalties from digital distribution of their rights? don't most publishing contracts give these proceeds just to the publisher? |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:33) just because it has the word "fair" in it, doesn't mean it's right |
| <jD> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:33) blabla |
| <RJ11> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:33) hmm, so if he's in favor of allowing artists to have copyright control over their work, why is he in favor of the RIAA taking artists' work from them? |
| <TimM> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:33) bullshit dvds cost so much... |
| <coo> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:33) thhey dont care what is "right". they care what is "legal" |
| <TimM> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:33) it's insane |
| <joeU> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:33) refer to the Courtney Love speech... |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:33) coo, no they care about making money |
| <DannyS> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:33) RJ11: exactly. why does he keep talking about the artists and tehn screwing the artists? |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:33) If it's illegal, just change the law |
| <MattK> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:33) agreed, DVD cost less to produce than VHS tapes, same with CDs and cassette tapes. |
| <RJ11> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:34) because he's trying to make the people here what they want |
| <Phokus> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:34) is there going to be a written transcript of this? |
| <DannyS> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:34) Phokus: they're working on it. |
| <Phokus> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:34) okie |
| <DouglasH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:34) well, the FTC found the recording industry was colluding last year to keep CD prices above a minimum level |
| <firstL> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:34) valenti looks like a child molester. |
| <Phokus> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:34) i think movie stars get paid about right... |
| <joeU> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:34) coo: no, they care for what their Billions make congress think what is legal |
| <DamienS> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:34) How many streams does this thing allow? |
| <SylviaC> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:34) * disappointed |
| <TimM> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:35) what a dick |
| <DouglasH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:35) firstL: not funny. he only advertises violent movies to children... |
| <dieman> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:35) haha |
| <Phokus> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:35) rofl |
| <TimM> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:35) he ignores the comparison and just makes fun of it as an odd question |
| <TimM> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:35) he's so stupid and uninformed |
| <dieman> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:35) forever minus one day? |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:35) what a bunch of sycophants you all are, ehhe |
| <BenB> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:35) Damn, the server is too loaded |
| <dieman> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:35) what the hell? |
| <CRC> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:35) I think that all they care about is making money - not what's best for the artist, or consumer. |
| <JeremyN> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:35) (OWWWW!) |
| <jgJ> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:35) if i knewdammit this debate has accomplished nothing. |
| <joeU> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:35) dannys : that is not going to happen anytime soon |
| <DouglasH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:35) forever minus one day is still a "limited time" in Valenti's view |
| <aronC> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:35) dieman: ref to something lib said earlier |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:35) The real question is however that of what is intellectual property |
| <dieman> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:35) aron -ahhh. |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:35) jgj, since when has a debate ever accomplished anything? |
| <vbnvF> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:35) line up to lick Jack's spincter |
| <DannyS> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:36) joeU: what the transcript? |
| <dieman> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:36) they *should ask my question* |
| <dieman> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:36) any of them |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:36) rmah, there's plenty of truth to that |
| <dieman> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:36) especially the first two i sent |
| <vbnvF> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:36) what debate? |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:36) The debate was not to solve the problem the courts will solve that eventually |
| <coo> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:36) rmah: since the Linconl vs. Douglass debates |
| <dieman> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:36) gish darn |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:36) good enuf |
| <DouglasH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:36) <clap*clap*clap* |
| <TimM> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:36) oh well he'll die soon |
| <CurtissP> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:36) clap |
| <dieman> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:36) this debate didn't go over *anything* new. |
| <CRC> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:36) courst will solve? or put to rest. |
| <jgJ> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:36) i wanted to hear valenti's justifications for his views. |
| <dieman> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:36) NOTHING new was covered here |
| <joeU> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:36) dannys : no, valenti saying something coherent |
| <vbnvF> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:36) he is in my deap pool |
| <dieman> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:36) nothing at all |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:36) RobbiH, I'm sure the courts will *decide*, I'm not sure they will *solve* |
| <BenB> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:36) There is nothing new to cover |
| <vbnvF> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:36) he is in my dead pool |
| <DannyS> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:36) but at least jack publically talked about his position for the first time. |
| <JeremyN> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:37) ack.... stereo cable shorting.... |
| <CurtissP> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:37) most entertaining |
| <aronC> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:37) jgj: Amen.. he NEVER backed any of his stances up.. just said "it's the law" |
| <dieman> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:37) benb - yes. there are some questions in the queue asking for valenti/mpaa views that arent out there. |
| <DouglasH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:37) say goodnight gracie |
| <DuncanM> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:37) They didn't asner my question about Valenti's comments on RecordTV |
| <joeU> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:37) yeah, nothing happened... |
| <SylviaC> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:37) Are we invited to the reception? |
| <RJ11> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:37) he still never defined "fair use", though I'm sure it was his most used phrase.. |
| <DouglasH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:37) they only asked one or two e-mail questions |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:37) Your right there is so much more to the question than the little bit that is being argued |
| <JamesN> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:37) they going to have this available later? |
| <BenB> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:37) Like? |
| <GrimR> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:37) why are we leaving it up to the courts to solve? They are some of the most ignorant on the subject |
| <Omnifarious> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:37) He will never justify his views. |
| <DouglasH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:37) but its great that corley and eric eldred got to speak |
| <joeU> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:37) shit, the |
| <Omnifarious> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:37) He doesn't care if they have a justification. |
| <vbnvF> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:37) eat my elderly ass! |
| <DuncanM> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:37) RJ11: Excellent point. The phrase he based much of his rebuttal on, was never defined. |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:37) GrimR, it's the courts or congress...who would you pick? |
| <MattK> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:37) the courts might actually leave it up to Congress to make a better law. I can't imagine the courts making sense of the confusion that is the DMCA |
| <BenB> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:37) His justification is the law, be it right or wrong |
| <joeU> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:37) shit the stream crashed again |
| <firstL> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:37) i think it's just over. |
| <DuncanM> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:37) joeU: The debate is over. |
| <Omnifarious> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:37) Yep. |
| <RJ11> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:38) that was pretty useless. |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:38) The dont need justification at this time only the the law as it stands which is unprepared for the technology |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:38) BenB, well, if val thought the law was wrong, I'm sure he'd get it changed |
| <DuncanM> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:38) Well, I hope the transcript materializes in the next few days or so. I am off to study more for the LSAT. |
| <BenB> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:38) Exactly right Robbi |
| <CurtissP> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:38) useless? I think it fairly summed the polarity that exists |
| <joeU> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:38) already ? I didn't hear anything new there, just the same bs over and over again |
| <aronC> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:38) rmah: And oh boy would it every change fast |
| <Dan> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:38) rmah: Valenti said he didn't have a vote in congress! :) |
| <jgJ> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:38) we should revolt! |
| <GrimR> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:38) yeah but his money did |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:38) we are revolting |
| <RJ11> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:38) "the first priority here is the rights of the artist" |
| <RJ11> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:39) bullshit. |
| <jgJ> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:39) i'm not revolting, am i? |
| <BenB> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:39) bullshit |
| <DannyS> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:39) right-o. |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:39) Dan, he's right...he doesn't have A vote, he's got LOTS of votes |
| <joeU> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:39) bullshit |
| <GrimR> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:39) the MPAA is out to protect people like brittney spears |
| <aronC> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:39) I'm glad Lib pointed out how everytime micky was to go public the copyright law expanded |
| <GrimR> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:39) she isnt an artist |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:39) So he did tell the truth there |
| <e-uoaphys> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:39) wtf why are thre 2 channels for this shit |
| <JeremyN> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:39) wouldn't it make sense if, in order to legally introduce a new bill, all conficts with prior law had to be documented? And if any further undocumented conflict showed up, it would default to prior law? |
| <e-uoaphys> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:39) you miss half the convo |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:39) right, and your force feeding the artist theft via napster is about choice? haha |
| <Phokus> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:39) britney spears != artist :P |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:39) we have created a forum that has true freedom crossing international borders they are not yet truly aware of that |
| <BenB> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:39) The MPAA exists to exploit artists |
| <MattK> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:39) Congress has caught on a little bit. Sen. Hatch really was pissed off at the music industry..and some (I can't remember the name) is proposing bill to legalize Mp3.com's business modal. |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:39) jaremy, that would require intelligence on the part of the legislatures |
| <joeU> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:39) just like the RIAA |
| <RJ11> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:39) NO. the MPAA and RIAA exist to make money. |
| <Phokus> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:39) i think you guys are confusing the MPAA with the RIAA |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:40) Tha MPAA exist to fill corperate coffers period |
| <e-uoaphys> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:40) damn there are ppl in #gc3 too.. |
| <DannyS> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:40) and the RIAA does as well. |
| <BenB> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:40) No, in my opinion, they act in the same way |
| <Phokus> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:40) RJ11: yeah but it's the WAY they make money that we're debating about |
| <DannyS> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:40) maybe we should all go to gc1 now. |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:40) Try and film your own startrek movie |
| <e-uoaphys> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:40) this convo is so lame. |
| <RJ11> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:40) and they will make money by whatever legal means necessary, which frequently means changing the law. |
| <DannyS> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:40) wow, Jack is here now. |
| <joeU> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:40) these two things MPAA and RIAA have the same idiots at their head, don't they ? |
| <BenB> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:40) The same mentality, yes. |
| <MPAA> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:40) i own you all |
| <GrimR> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:41) I think that distributing materials that can be put into a digital format is a dead buisness |
| <aronC> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:41) And she does too |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:41) Well they have the ability to iffluence the court so they just might change laws as it is is their best interest |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:41) GrimR, I sure as hell hope not |
| <JeremyN> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:41) keeping in mind how the RIAA head defined fair use... |
| <Phokus> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:41) i just love paying 20 dollars for a music cd, don't you? |
| <GrimR> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:41) all the technology is designed to copy things and distribute it |
| <DannyS> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:41) i think the court will not be able to stop tech. it's like lessig says - code is law (.org) |
| <RJ11> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:41) did not the RIAA promise to lower the cost of CDs like 10 years ago? |
| <courtney_love> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:41) hey, MPAA, fuck you |
| <RJ11> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:41) they claimed CDs would be chaper than tapes. |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:41) rj11, that was a ruse |
| <MPAA> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:41) courtney love |
| <MPAA> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:41) no.. you fuck me baby |
| <BenB> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:41) Yeah, they said. |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:41) WHY DON'T ALL YOU SLASHDOT ZEALOTS just join #jerkoff and circle jerk each other if all you're going to do is pat each other on the back with warm fuzzies |
| <MPAA> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:42) i want your pussy |
| <RJ11> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:42) even though they are cheaper to produce.. |
| <Phokus> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:42) CD's ARE cheaper than tapes, but CD's cost TWICE as much as tapes do |
| <GrimR> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:42) rmah: I think buisness is moving more into the direction of services |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:42) They need not ever explain temselves to you and you know it |
| <Jack_Valenti_AA_Member> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:42) hey fallline fuck me in the ass |
| <DannyS> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:42) we need an IRCop... |
| <bahB> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:42) anyone need a copy of DeCSS |
| <MPAA> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:42) bah yea man |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:42) GrimR, maybe...but if intelligence is what matters... |
| <MPAA> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:42) it sall over the web |
| <MPAA> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:42) bah, cheq www.2600.com |
| <courtney_love> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:42) http://sxpert.dyndns.org/decss |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:42) ...I'd rather get paid for it than for bending over for clients |
| <Jack_Valenti_AA_Member> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:42) DeCSS is released... impossible to stop now |
| <bahB> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:42) MPAA: use go.com its owned by Disney a member of the MPAA |
| <MPAA> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:43) oh yea |
| <Phokus> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:43) hehe |
| <MPAA> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:43) go.com/decss |
| <MPAA> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:43) :) |
| <courtney_love> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:43) yep, jack, the horse is out of the barn |
| <ReaganH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:43) Signing off.... |
| <MPAA> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:43) mpaa should sue itself for linking to deCSS |
| <DannyS> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:43) well, i see this has degenerated. bye all. |
| <GrimR> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:43) rmah: I think software is a different issue, my generalization as all generalizaions go was innacurate |
| <Phokus> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:43) i link to goat pr0n on my homepage, please don't sue me! |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:43) GrimR, same goes for music and film |
| <Jack_Valenti_AA_Member> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:44) http://www.goatse.cx |
| <Phokus> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:44) haha jack |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:44) GrimR, most musicians would rather not play clubs every night to support themselves |
| <Jack_Valenti_AA_Member> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:44) i like hot grits |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:44) The real question has devolved into a fight over code and freedom of speech what constitutes freedom |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:44) Or weddings and barmitzvah's God forbid |
| <GrimR> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:44) rmah: i agree |
| <MikeR> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:44) what's a grit |
| <RJ11> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:44) ok, this is just plain retarded. |
| <bahB> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:44) rmah: musicians have done so for 1000's of years |
| <Phokus> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:44) hey anyone know what the irc server for this room is? |
| <natalie_portman_with_hot_grits> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:45) who wants me!? |
| <GrimR> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:45) rmah: i would rather not have to go to work everyday either but I do |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:45) bahB, and for most of that time, they were regarded in the same class as whores and conmen |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:45) more and more music is being self published |
| <Phokus> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:45) did someone say whores?? :) |
| <bahB> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:45) aren't they still |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:45) The elevation of musicians and actors by society is relatively recent |
| <bahB> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:45) pop culture |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:45) For most of history, they were NOT considered genteel |
| <Phokus> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:46) hahaha |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:46) sure, might as well |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:46) bcis.law.harvard.edu:6667 |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:46) Today the music has a chance to be more than contiversial but the controversy itself |
| <GrimR> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:46) it has only been the past few years where people actually paid for music |
| <natalie_portman_with_hot_grits> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:46) who wants hot gritz? |
| <bahB> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:46) i haven't paid for music since mp3's came out |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:46) RobbiH, ummm...maybe...but lots of musicians and artists were persecuted for political reasons way back when |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:47) I don't know about more or less though |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:47) Teh freedom of selfexpression and the law what determines fee speech are both being attacked |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:47) RobbiH, hmmm...I don't think it's that broad |
| <CmdrTaco> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:47) i haven't paid for blowjobs since i found out where you get them for free |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:47) The argument is about how broad the "fair use" should be |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:47) Basically |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:48) CmdrTaco, yeah, it's called Slashdot.org |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:48) err, "fair use" clause |
| <GrimR> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:48) maybe we should bring up the issue of whether or not the MPAA should be brought down merely for the reason that to not sign under a major label pretty much assures that you wont make any moeny |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:48) Grim, you mean the RIAA |
| <GrimR> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:48) both |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:48) True enough even today much music is controversial but today in this nation the attack is not on just the musician but free speech |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:48) grimr, wtf kind of logic is that? so now you're going to strip the choice from the artist? |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:48) And that money comes from overcharging the consumer |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:48) because you feel they dont make any money? |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:49) If the 'net stops the overcharging, then musicians lose out too |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:49) if the other alternatives are so much better, why not just let the artist decide for themselves |
| <GrimR> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:49) FallLine: no I am saying that the labels have a monopoly over the artists |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:49) The arguement is not over money and how much something costs |
| <natalie_portman_with_hot_grits> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:49) RIAA is so dumb |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:49) they only have a monopoly because the artist chooses to sign |
| <MikeR> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:49) seriously |
| <natalie_portman_with_hot_grits> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:49) i shoudl pour hot grits in their executive's pants |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:49) GrimR, no...they have a oligopoly over the distribution channels |
| <GrimR> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:49) in order to compete with brittney spears you dont have a chance without a label |
| <natalie_portman_with_hot_grits> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:49) im petrified |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:49) And they are trying to protect their DISTRIBUTION channels |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:49) If I enjoy the music I will pay for it to suport the musician |
| <natalie_portman_with_hot_grits> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:49) i compete with brieney spears |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:49) huh, please |
| <natalie_portman_with_hot_grits> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:49) well fun competition |
| <natalie_portman_with_hot_grits> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:50) we are lovers behidn the scenes |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:50) the only thing they've attacked are avenues that they have legitimate claim to |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:50) Yes distribution is part of this case |
| <courtney_love> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:50) RobbiH: yes, but 99,9% of your $$$ go to the heirs of Valenti |
| <Phokus2> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:50) so who here wants to cyber? I heard them harvard chicks are cute :> |
| <GrimR> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:50) i would pay for the music in the form of a monhtly service fee |
| <natalie_portman_with_hot_grits> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:50) phokus |
| <natalie_portman_with_hot_grits> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:50) hi |
| <Phokus2> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:50) hi natalie |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:50) GrimR, not I |
| <CmdrTaco> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:50) ever see good will hunting? |
| <natalie_portman_with_hot_grits> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:50) a/s/l? |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:50) Yes I know do you know how I can reach the mucisians themselves? |
| <Phokus2> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:50) 21/M/New York |
| <MikeR> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:50) gwhunting kicked ass |
| <natalie_portman_with_hot_grits> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:50) cool |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:50) RobbiH, go to a bar |
| <GrimR> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:50) rmah: so you still want to buy cds at ripoff prices when you can manafacture them yourself |
| <Phokus2> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:50) you? |
| <natalie_portman_with_hot_grits> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:51) you know who i am right? |
| <courtney_love> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:51) No, you have to go through their agents (c/o blabla...) |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:51) GrimR, no, I just don't buy them anymore |
| <Phokus2> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:51) yeah, but i know you're not that person :P |
| <natalie_portman_with_hot_grits> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:51) if yoru from slashdot, then you should know :) |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:51) phokus, lol, this is a great place to meet women. HAHA |
| <natalie_portman_with_hot_grits> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:51) yea i am |
| <natalie_portman_with_hot_grits> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:51) i was in star wars damnit! |
| <Phokus2> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:51) laff |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:51) take your pick of any slashdot geek,...err I mean women |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:51) I do and last week I bought a CD from a small startup band with only 10 original tunes to their name |
| <natalie_portman_with_hot_grits> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:51) phokus, do you want some hot grits? |
| <GrimR> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:51) rmah: so how are you getting music? |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:51) I personally could give a shit less whether all musicians starve |
| <Phokus2> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:51) sure would :) |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:51) GrimR, I don't |
| <Phokus2> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:52) hahaha |
| <GrimR> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:52) rmah: that would explain it |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:52) But people who say that things like Napster are good for musicians are full of it |
| <GrimR> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:52) rmah: well you could build a working economic model for it |
| <CmdrTaco> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:52) the RIAA fucking muscians in the ass is much better |
| <Phokus2> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:52) Money Good, Napster Bad! |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:52) GrimR, no you can't |
| <natalie_portman_with_hot_grits> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:52) rmah, hey, only thing i trade on nmapster is phish |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:52) Either musicians become poorer or they don't |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:52) Of course the recording industry becomes even more poor |
| <natalie_portman_with_hot_grits> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:53) and phish told me it was ok to trade their mp3's as long as it was their shows, shit that is all anyoen wants anyhow.. |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:53) True enough but the issue with napster is over linking not and sevice and distribution |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:53) But musicians DEFINATELY won't make more money with free copying |
| <GrimR> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:53) well if we are talking about the musicians, you cant make any economic model that will benefit them |
| <natalie_portman_with_hot_grits> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:53) i wrote a letter to my senator about decss and the DMCA |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:53) GrimR, agreed. |
| <GrimR> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:53) rmah: not free copying |
| <natalie_portman_with_hot_grits> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:53) and she replied with "yes i am against napster. i will protect artists copyrite bleh bleh bleh" |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:53) True so how can we solve this? |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:53) GrimR, and just what is Napster then? |
| <GrimR> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:53) rmah: I have been working on a model of charging a monthly service fee |
| <natalie_portman_with_hot_grits> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:53) i didnt mention music, mp3's or napster ONCE in my letter |
| <natalie_portman_with_hot_grits> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:53) and she replied thinking i only wanted to tlak about napster |
| <natalie_portman_with_hot_grits> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:53) fucking bullshit |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:53) princess, I didn't mention YOU |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:54) A monthly service fee paid to whom? |
| <Phokus2> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:54) i don't think the RIAA is afraid that napster is going to hurt music sales (obviously it hasn't), they're afraid that artists are going to get the idea that maybe they can distribute their music on their own and screw the record lables over |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:54) GrimR, anything that reduces your music expenditures reduces the money that artists make |
| <GrimR> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:54) the artists submit their music, it gets distributed, and the artists is paid a percentage of how much their music is downloaded |
| <GrimR> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:54) not necessarily |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:54) Phokus, musicians can ALREADY distribute indpendently |
| <CmdrTaco> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:54) WELCOME TO THE 'THE FUTURE OF INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY' WEBCAST |
| <courtney_love> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:54) rmah: no, wrong, thank you for playing... they don't make any money |
| <natalie_portman_with_hot_grits> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:54) rmah, not the ones that are signed |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:54) They certainly don't need things like Napster for it |
| <Phokus2> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:54) yeah, but can they succeed without a record label? |
| <natalie_portman_with_hot_grits> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:55) rmah, if the artis is signed, they DO NOT OWN THEIR COPYRITE |
| <Phokus2> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:55) i'm not talking specifically about napster |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:55) That is of course their concern as is MS over Linux and the case of DeCSS |
| <natalie_portman_with_hot_grits> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:55) the exception is metallica. that is why they can sue and britney spears cannot. |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:55) Do you guys know how many small, independent lables are out there? |
| <GrimR> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:55) rmah: on the artists side they could do it themselves |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:55) And how much money does it take to put up a website and press some CD's? |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:55) No but if you tell me I wont believe you |
| <GrimR> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:55) rmah: yes, very aware, just take a look at punk and ska |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:55) Artists can do it themselves NOW |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:55) YESSSS |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:55) Self distribution doesn't get you the promo $$$$ |
| <Phokus2> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:55) rmah: yeah but how successful can you be without the marketing of the record labels? |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:55) And promo $$$$ is what gets you the sales |
| <GrimR> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:55) rmah: yes but there is no promotion |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:56) phokus, exactly! |
| <natalie_portman_with_hot_grits> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:56) rmah, whats the point? artists who do it themselves now dont get a chance in the big time becaue they are nto in teh RIAA club |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:56) And less money to the record companies means less promo $$$ means less sales |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:56) True but how can we as a community generate that for them? |
| <The_SlashDot_Collective> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:56) natalie, what a load of crap |
| <natalie_portman_with_hot_grits> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:56) rmah, there is NEVER a top hit that isnt soponsord by major label. |
| <The_SlashDot_Collective> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:56) so why it is that all these artists flock to the labels? |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:56) All of which means musicians make less (on average) |
| <MikeR> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:56) :m |
| <natalie_portman_with_hot_grits> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:56) there is better music than britney spears that neve gets heard because of the RIAA |
| <Phokus2> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:56) yeah, so in other words, the record labels have an oligopoly and they're afraid that if digital distribution takes on, ALL their artists will leave to distribute their music independently |
| <The_SlashDot_Collective> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:56) you say they do nothing, when that's clearly not true |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:56) Personally, they could starve for all I care |
| <courtney_love> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:56) natalie : yes, because the labels buy the cds so that it makes the top 50 |
| <GrimR> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:57) the labels are basicly a PR service for the artist |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:57) phokus, it's not that the musicians will leave...they can always make more |
| <MikeR> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:57) man, music sucks I'm just gonna boycott it |
| <natalie_portman_with_hot_grits> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:57) i love you corutney love :) |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:57) phokus, it's that their revenues will be hurt |
| <Phokus2> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:57) i don't care if the record label's revenue is hurt, their business practices are unethical |
| <The_SlashDot_Collective> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:57) you claim the industry has a lack over the distribution channels, while most of the music stores are hurting for cash |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:57) Lots of the top "musicians" are already manufactured... |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:57) ...look to Japan for what it'll be like in a few years |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:57) They churn 'em out |
| <GrimR> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:58) agreed |
| <Phokus2> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:58) japan produced britney spears? huh? |
| <GrimR> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:58) and they suck |
| <GrimR> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:58) its almost like pollution |
| <Phokus2> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:58) oh ok nm i know what you mean |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:58) grimr, true...they still sell though |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:58) which shows that labels could care less about musicians leaving |
| <GrimR> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:58) but its only because of brain washing |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:58) They can always make more |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:58) They're worried about SALES |
| <courtney_love> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:58) I know how it works, I've worked in a radio, and I can tell you that the labels tell us to put stuff that many times per hour (usualy 6) and dumps a load of cash so we do it... I quit, the atmosphere was so f*****g stinking |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:58) Plain and simple |
| <Phokus2> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:59) mp3's haven't hurt sales so far |
| <Phokus2> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:59) so that point is moot |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:59) phokus, no one knows for sure |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:59) Playing "what if" is silly |
| <Phokus2> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:59) they're more worried about their future stranglehold on distribution |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:59) err, "what could have been" |
| <Phokus2> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:59) no, it's not 'what if' it's 'what is now' |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:59) phokus, exactly |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 20:59) The MPAA has been playing what iifs and they see a threat |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:00) anyway, who here cares if musicians become poor slobs again? |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:00) Not I |
| <MikeR> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:00) phokus2: I used to buy 2 cd's a week, now I don't buy any. don't you think there are others like me? |
| <Phokus2> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:00) i sure don't :P |
| <Phokus2> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:00) maybe, but mp3's aren't exactly the best quality |
| <MikeR> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:00) good enough for me |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:00) MS plays what ifs and they buy a company |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:00) I never liked overproduced music anyway :) |
| <natalie_portman_with_hot_grits> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:00) who wants grits? |
| <MikeR> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:00) me |
| <The_SlashDot_Collective> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:00) rmah, obviously you do, because you're buying the stuff that is produced exclusively by pampered slobs |
| <MikeR> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:00) what's a grit |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:00) slashdot, I buy what? |
| <Phokus2> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:01) so what, i stopped buying CD's from any RIAA company in protest and only purchase those from mp3.com, what kind of argument is that |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:01) I've bought maybe a dozen CD's over the last decade...sheesh |
| <The_SlashDot_Collective> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:01) so then what do you care if RIAA says you can download their mp3s or not |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:01) slashdot, I care about the creation of law |
| <MikeR> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:01) phokus2: I've never heard of buying cd's from mp3.com. why would anyone buy them there when they can get them for free? |
| <courtney_love> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:02) I usually got the extra cds we got at the radio... yes, they send dozens so that we can give them away in games, and they count as "sales" |
| <MikeR> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:02) (the mp3's that is) |
| <Phokus2> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:02) yeah you can |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:02) it's very simple. the artist has a choice today: Sign with the labels, or not. |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:02) miker, heh...CD puchase was mp3.com's original business model |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:02) napster's advocates want to remove that choice |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:02) they were meant to be an "independent" label of sorts |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:02) based on their highly theoretical alternative models |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:02) none of which are proven |
| <Phokus2> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:02) and artists still get compensated by mp3.com when you download their music |
| <Phokus2> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:02) which is a better business model |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:03) phokus, you know what the average compensation is?!?! |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:03) bah, yeah, and how many artists have gone anywhere with it? like 2 or something |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:03) It's something like $12 per year |
| <MikeR> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:03) True, I never thought about that. If I had any spare cash, I would probably do that. But while I am a starving intern... |
| <Phokus2> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:03) yeah well that's because these artists aren't mainstream, i've seen artists on mp3.com that get paid $20,000 a year from that service... if it was mainstream maybe theyd get paid more |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:03) bull, there are plenty of artists driving BMWs and such |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:04) phokus, wooooo $20k/yr...that's a lot |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:04) phokus, so great |
| <MikeR> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:04) more record exec's driving ferraris |
| <courtney_love> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:04) yes, the BMW are bought by the record companies |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:04) FallLine, and they all have contracts with major labels |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:04) IF mp3.com is as superior as you claim, artists will flock to it |
| <Phokus2> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:04) like i said, it's not mainstream, if artists left their record labels and did something like that, maybe it'd be more of a success, this is new you know |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:04) why forcefully remove the choice from the artist? |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:04) Phokus, not if you can D/L their mp3's for nothing |
| <Phokus2> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:05) because the record label has a tight grip on marketing and distribution, this is a circular answer you know |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:05) the obvious answer is because a lot of people here simply want free sh*t, and they dont want to think about the realistic consequences |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:05) FallLine, I agree |
| <MikeR> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:05) me too |
| <MikeR> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:05) but ignorance is bliss! |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:05) I'm willing to admit that artists will "starve". |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:05) phokus2, circular? but you just claimed mp3.com artists are more successfull |
| <Phokus2> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:05) if that's true, then why have cd sales gone up despite the napster revolution? |
| <nilsW> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:05) test |
| <Phokus2> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:05) no that's not what i'm sayhing |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:06) you cnat have your cake and eat it too |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:06) Phokus, good God, 1 year is a trend?!?!? |
| <MikeR> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:06) I'll bet they would have gone up more if mp3 had never existed |
| <Phokus2> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:06) two years isn't it? |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:06) Phokus, and maybe they would have risen more if mp3's didn't exist |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:06) either artists are better off on avg with mp3.com, or they arent |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:06) But really... |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:06) but stick with an argument |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:06) think ahead a few years |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:06) broadband everywhere |
| <MikeR> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:06) Nobody I know buys cd's anymore, how can you say that doesn't affect CD sales at all? |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:06) lots of networked dedicated mp3 hardware |
| <GrimR> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:07) who is to decide who is better off |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:07) high quality mp3 software |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:07) who the hell will buy CD's then? |
| <GrimR> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:07) who decides who is better to have better off |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:07) it certainly will affect sales, despite all the propoganda to the contrary |
| <GrimR> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:07) on one hand napster makes napster people better off |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:07) GrimR, the market, of course :) |
| <GrimR> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:07) exactly |
| <courtney_love> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:07) I'd say that the solution is to charge a quarter per downloaded song... that sound all right |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:07) The market has spoken. |
| <GrimR> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:07) rmah: thank god someone who understands economics |
| <Phokus2> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:07) i think they COULD be better off with an mp3.com service if the record labels didn't have a tight stranglehold on the market and if someone came up with a digital watermark technology that protected their interests, even if they didn't i'm sure people would pay for a monthly fee for a service that let them listen to as much music online as they want, i sure would |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:07) The market says, "Musicians will become poor." |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:08) I say, "Tough...life's not fair" |
| <GrimR> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:08) rmah: the market is saying lets make napster better off |
| <courtney_love> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:08) and of that quarter, 2 cents go to the service, and the rest to the artists directly |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:08) Phokus, you're dreaming |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:08) The real issue is being lost here folks how may we encourage freedom on the internet and at the same time steal from our supporters |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:08) courney, hahaha |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:08) don't confuse anarchy with the "market" |
| <GrimR> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:08) rmah: and the law says that the "artists" should be better off |
| <Phokus2> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:08) what? if a company let me listen to all the music i wanted for a monthly fee? i sure would, i wouldn't need to go searching for songs on napster |
| <nilsW> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:08) sound's like, from c_love's article a while back that musicians arn't always that rich to begin with & end up in debt |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:08) is anarchy the internet I think not |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:08) courtney, and why would anyone pay in the first place? |
| <GrimR> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:09) note that "artists" is the front for the MPAA and RIAA |
| <MikeR> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:09) courtney_love: Yeah and I would like a beatiful big-breasted woman to fall out of the sky, but it just ain't gonna happen |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:09) GrimR, well...we know that's not so |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:09) The artists are caught between a rock and a hard place |
| <courtney_love> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:09) because the money would really go to the artists, not to some idiot in his corporate plane |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:09) courtney love is full of it |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:09) It seems like a no win scenario for musicians, if you ask me |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:10) while we all have to support those whose music we love are we to turn our back upon them |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:10) And courtney love is just SOOOO smart, eh? |
| <ChrisM> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:10) I'm surprised that some of these recording cartels arent in the hot seat with the feds ala Microsoft. |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:10) Bwahahaha |
| <nilsW> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:10) sound like the system is teh enmy as usual |
| <MikeR> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:10) I would like to think that I have some sense of reality, unlike some people here |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:10) RobbiH, sure...why not? |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:10) most restraunt owners fail and end up in debt |
| <Phokus2> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:10) that's because they reached an out of court settlement which is completely gay |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:10) nilsW, YOU are the "system" |
| <GrimR> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:10) MikeR explain |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:10) does that mean there is some evil force at work? |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:10) does that mean taht no one gets rich? |
| <nilsW> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:10) have many |
| <ChrisM> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:10) Phokus2: Another slap on the wrist eh? |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:11) The true test f this will be in the music we hear and its not so good these days is it? |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:11) Hmm..some musicians will probably still get rich a la the Grateful Dead model |
| <Phokus2> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:11) yes, corporations rarely get hurt by the courts |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:11) that is the nature of the market. you want to play the popular artist game? well guess what, there's significant risk to it |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:11) especially if you dont nkow how to manage your money |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:11) But "rock stars" may be a thing of the past in a few years |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:11) phokus, bull |
| <ChrisM> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:11) Hmmm...Perhaps we need to start some petitions to get these corporations charters revoked. |
| <Phokus2> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:11) i meant hurt bad |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:11) Dow Corning ring a bell? |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:11) FallLine, good example! |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:11) True enuf "Rock Star" may be a dead end |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:11) there are plenty of good products that arent on the market because of these stupid lawsuits |
| <MikeR> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:12) grimr: I was referring to courtney_love's comment that 2cents would go to the service, and the rest of a quarter would go to the artist. But that is not realistic, because services like napster will always be there, allowing the same music to be obtained for free. |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:12) dont even try to say corporations dont get hurt, because they do. there are thousands of examples |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:12) MikeR, exactly |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:12) Trial lawyers...it's all their fault |
| <Phokus2> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:12) actually, the market hurts them more than the courts |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:12) That is the problem while napster provides a free resourse to music it only provides a link |
| <ChrisM> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:13) I wonder how an independent recording studio is gonna afford the outragoues fees required for pro-DVD recording equipement. |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:13) phokus, sometimes...sometimes not |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:13) The linking issue is the most important one |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:13) ChrisM, it's not that much |
| <ChrisM> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:13) er...professional DVD recording equipment. |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:13) ChrisM, you can setup a good studio for less than it costs to open a decent resteraunt |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:14) I have a decent recoding studio and it is little investment |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:14) Shit, I know two groups who started their own labels, and they're certainly not rich |
| <ChrisM> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:14) rmah: Right, but they would have to emplay Sony or some other entity for distribution, right? |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:14) ChrisM, only if they "sell out", heh |
| <ChrisM> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:14) rmah: Unless they wanna set up thier own factory. |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:14) Lots of tiny labels with crappy distribution exist now |
| <natalie_portman_with_hot_grits> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:14) fall |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:14) ChrisM, even the major labels don't actually manufactures CD's and DVD's |
| <natalie_portman_with_hot_grits> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:14) man.. hot grits in my pants, im petrefied |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:15) It's all outsourced...welcome to the present |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:15) just to fill you guys in that believe corporations aren't hurt. Dow Corning and many other manufacturers that produced breast implants were forced to declare bankruptsy. Despite a distinct lack of evidence, even years later, that they're relatively harmless. So today, you can't find silicon breast implants. What's more, even OBTAINING silicon for use in implantable silicon devices is impossible to find now... |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:15) Hell, the labels don't even do the cover art or the liner notes |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:15) The real issues are being lost upon deaf ears what about the more important issue of linking |
| <MikeR> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:16) yeah but they're all in bed with each other. Being outside of this "bed", an independent label would have to pay much more for services |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:16) RobbiH, I agree that that is very important, but it seems outside the scope of the current discussion/argument |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:16) MikeR, probably, but it's still not all that much |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:16) Less than $1 per CD to press 1000 CD's |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:17) I suppose thats true but the problem of how to solve the financial woes of a corperation are not at this time availble to me |
| <ChrisM> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:17) FallLine: I dont doubt that the corp itself is hurt, I'm talking about the managers, CEOs, et... who get away with murder(metaphorically) and are shielded by the Corps. maybe the lose thier position, but hey, they already have a $10million bank account. |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:17) Who's trying to solve the financial woes of a corporation? |
| <courtney_love> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:17) rmah : you're kidding ? it's about 500$ to press that amount : 450 for the master, and the rest for the cds themselves |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:18) FallLine, those people only work there...they're not the owners |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:18) The MPAA is acting in the behalf if several |
| <ChrisM> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:18) Fall Line: I say revoke the Corporations charter and send the head honchos to prison for a while. |
| <MikeR> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:18) courtney_love: are you really courtney love? |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:18) courtney, as I said, it's not that expensive |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:18) FallLine, which ones? |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:19) FallLine, what about the ones who said, "let's NOT do that!" |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:19) But their boss overruled them |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:19) FallLine, what about the OWNERS? |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:19) rmah, huh? |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:19) Under your logic, shouldn't the owners be punished as well as the top employees? |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:19) rmah, my logic says no such thing |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:19) I mean, why sheild the owners and not sheild the workers? |
| <ChrisM> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:20) The thing that bugs me about DVDs is that whole access control nonsense. i.e. Who can watch a video and when. |
| <ChrisM> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:20) And where. |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:20) So, you think the owners should go to jail as well? |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:20) i'm all for penalizing the responsible managers |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:20) But they're just worker bees!?!?! |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:20) but going after corporations with arbitrary punitive damages hurts a lot of people, and does little to address the problem |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:20) Personal liability for corporate action...yeah, that makes sense. |
| <ChrisM> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:21) rmah: I think all parties who knowingly contribute to a problem, either actively OR PASSIVELY should go to prison. |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:21) rmah, huh? |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:21) FallLine, that's what you're suggesting... |
| <ChrisM> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:22) FallLine: The overall effect it would have on the market would be good, as shareholders would be more inclined to examine these corporations much more closely. |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:22) That people be personally responsible for the actions of a corporation |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:22) I'm suggesting that where upper management is responsible, they be held accountable |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:22) not for reasonable mistakes |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:22) FallLine, where do you draw the line at "upper"? |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:22) A corperation exists as a legal entity just as a single individual. |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:22) but for out and out negligence or criminal acts |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:22) IMO, "negligence" is bullshit |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:23) It's in the same boat as "emotional distress" |
| <ChrisM> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:23) RobbiH: Yes, and the state holds the power to revoke that status. |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:23) well first off, corporate directors have been held accountable, it's not nearly so strong |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:23) i.e., ADM |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:23) Yes and at that time what is the effect the corperation no longer exists |
| <ChrisM> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:23) Revoke revoke revoke. Heh. |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:23) FallLine, well that would immediately cause all outside, independent, directors to resign |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:24) rmah, if it's _reasonable_ I dont think so |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:24) FallLine, if their's even a tiny chance that the actions of some moron... |
| <ChrisM> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:24) RobbiH: Doesnt matter, the shareholders should have been more selective in thier financial dealings. |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:24) if it can be proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that a manager was a willing participant in a criminal conspiracy, then they should be punished by all means |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:24) ...working at the company will cause you, as an outside director, to be liable... |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:24) ...you wouldn't do it. And neither would I. And neither would ANY sane person. |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:25) I mean, why take that kind of risk?!?!? |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:25) FallLine, "beyond a shadow of a doubt"?!?!? |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:25) We don't even require that for murder cases and the death penalty. |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:25) The corperation will still be held liable to all debts even if the charter is revoked |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:25) i'm speaking from the corporate side here |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:25) RobbiH, uhh...how? |
| <ChrisM> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:26) Depends, if maybe one or two incidents occur with a Coporation, then its reasonable to focus in on the responsible parties, but if a Corp establishes a history of abuse, then its charter should be revoked. |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:26) If the charter is revoked, there is no corporation anymore. |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:26) revoking the charter is stupid |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:26) Corporations were invented back in the 1700's for a reason |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:27) The courts have found that while a corperation is a legal entity the debts must still be paid if a crimminal even one convicted of a capital offence is has the ability to pay restitution the court will enforce restitution |
| <ChrisM> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:27) rmah: Yes, and they were held much more accountable to the citizenry then, unlike today. |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:28) well coming from a business background, I can tell you that there is little widespread misbehavior on the part of corporations that goes on without upper management leading the way |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:28) ChrisM, I agree with the general principle that corps should be more accountable |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:28) But this talk of personal liability and charter revokation strikes me as extreme |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:28) I agree |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:28) be it defrauding the consumer, or harrasing each other, it is management that sets the tone |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:29) FallLine, but should "setting the tone" (if it's negative) be a ciminal offense? |
| <ChrisM> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:29) rmah: I'm looking at the whole picture. If corporations start having thier charters revoked, then the entire market will be forced to play the game by more ethical means. |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:29) I mean, that's pretty damn fuzzy |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:29) rmah, for actual crimes commited by that person? yes |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:29) take ADM for example |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:29) chrism, personally, I'd just incorporate overseas |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:29) What kind of ethics are you speaking of? |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:30) there management was taped conspiring with the competition to fix prices |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:30) The ethics of a lawyer? |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:30) RobbiH, lawyers have ethics? |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:30) News to me |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:30) rmah, please |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:30) Rumors |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:30) heh |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:30) sorry |
| <sxpert> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:30) the webcast archive is available as a webcast... argh, they'll never learn... |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:30) sxpert, sad, truely sad |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:31) I think that steeper fines are in order |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:31) Nasty, heavy fines |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:31) Fines that really hurt |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:31) huh |
| <ChrisM> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:31) RobbiH: Things like paying attention to tire defects. |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:31) the fines are already way up |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:31) they're doing a crappy job |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:31) Umm...isn't that tire thing a bit overblown? |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:31) I am helping pay those fines you? |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:32) I mean, the failure rate is probably like 0.001% or something. |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:32) And I agree isnt the tire thing a bit "over"blown. |
| <ChrisM> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:32) rmah: But like I said, I'm not talking about revoking ALL charters or some such nonsense. I'm simply referring to nailing the worst of the worst. |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:33) I dont agree with the blow out on that whole thing |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:33) Robbi, eh? |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:33) woah, this channel thinned out |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:33) why didnt they tar that "archive" up |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:34) I am simply tired of hearing about how something that affects so few can invoke liability penalties so great like the great pinto explosion |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:34) FallLine, I think discussing corporate governence guidelines may be a tad boring for some :) |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:34) and put it into downloadable format so it could be shared.... do they really not want people to distribute it? |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:34) I agree completely |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:34) hah, well considering most of them came from slashdot, they should |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:34) since all they seem to do is complain about them |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:34) There was this thing on the local news recently about the dangers of backyard trampolines! |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:35) Egads! Kids could fall off and hurt themselves! Wonders of wonders! |
| <ChrisM> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:35) Slashdot users seem to be getting quite shallow as of late. |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:35) Hot cooffee at mcDonalds worth millions |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:35) Freakin' safety nazi's |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:35) And I came in on the /. link |
| <natalie_portman_with_hot_grits> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:35) does anyone know a mirror |
| <natalie_portman_with_hot_grits> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:36) this is fuckign pathetic |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:36) I wish someone with media exposure would just say, "Life is full of risks...deal withit!" |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:36) no kidding |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:36) I agree when soldiers live worse than prisoners |
| <sxpert> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:36) nathalie : yes : http:sxpert.dyndns.org/decss |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:36) one of the major problems with the US these days is that society refuses to take care of itself |
| <ChrisM> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:36) rmah: There are reasonable risks that can be expected with some things. |
| <natalie_portman_with_hot_grits> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:36) sx no i need mirror of teh ddebate |
| <sxpert> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:36) uh : http://sxpert.dyndns.org/decss |
| <natalie_portman_with_hot_grits> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:36) not the decc source |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:36) they expect everyone to always be watching out for them |
| <sxpert> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:37) uh, no, sorry |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:37) ChrisM, and some things are inherently dangerous |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:37) or how about that lady who sued the spermacidal jelly company because she got pregnant? she spread it on her toast |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:37) hahaha |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:37) Like backyard trampolines, cars crashing into each other, turning quickly in a big SUV, etc. |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:37) FallLine, hhahaha |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:37) Now that's funny |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:37) rmah, it's worse than that even |
| <ChrisM> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:37) rmah: This is about more than just safety issues. |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:38) Cruise contols in cars that dont drive the carat all |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:38) robbie, I remember hearing about that one :) |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:38) like in california, I nkow some property owners who're effectively told by the government that they must leave an easement open to the public to access the beach |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:38) ChrisM, I know...you're talking about things like the UnionCarbide/Bohpal incident |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:38) yet the government does not protect them from lawsuits |
| <ChrisM> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:38) It's about big dogs purposely stomping out smaller competition, even though the competition is clearly superior in many ways. |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:38) so property owners are at risk for serving a public good |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:39) ChrisM, better products are only a part of the picture |
| <ChrisM> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:39) It's about Corporations raping the communities they operate in. |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:39) whether or not it's mandated |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:39) R we now talking about whisper MS |
| <ChrisM> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:39) Ala Wal-Mart |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:39) FallLine, that's bad...as bad as the whole wetlands property non-seizure thing |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:39) yeah |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:39) sigh |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:39) walmart isnt perfect, but the fact is that their prices ARE lower |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:39) personally, i'd never shop there |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:40) Property owner in the northwest are now being informed that Sasquatch is a protected species |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:40) but some people would rather save a few bucks than get service or what have you |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:40) Freakin' tree-huggin', granola-munchin', birkenstock-wearin'...mumble...mumble... |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:40) heheheh |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:40) robbie, heh |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:40) tell me about it, i used to live in seattle, heh |
| <ChrisM> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:40) It's about the MPAA telling us what information we can and cant have access too, simply because they own the access mechanism. |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:41) uh, they own the material too |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:41) ChirsM, well, I do think that copyright holders have rights too |
| <ChrisM> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:41) FallLine: What happens when books start moving to DVD? |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:41) In the area surronding Redmonds Bellevue and and some of the other cities there has been several instances when people have reported siting Sasquatch the police and the state have informed them that this animal is protected |
| <sxpert> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:41) no, the guy who made the movie and the actors own the stuff, it's theyr work after all |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:41) ChrisM, I believe that'd actually be a good thing |
| <ChrisM> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:42) FallLine: Am I gonna have to pay a royalty to go read the Bible, or Shakespeare, or Dickens? |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:42) what many people fail to realize is that companies are out to maximize profits |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:42) Robbi, what if someone said they shot one? Would they be prosecuted? |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:42) not maximize prices |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:42) FallLine, sometimes managment at companies forget that |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:42) sometimes, but they tend to pay for it in the market |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:42) ChrisM, those items are all now public domain |
| <ChrisM> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:42) FallLine: Am I gonna have to pay a royalty to get acess to GLP software just because its on a DVD? |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:42) Yes they would be prosectuced if they accually shot one |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:42) that being said though, the telecos need to be smacked around some :) |
| <ChrisM> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:42) err...GPL |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:43) Beside's there is no definative Shakespere. |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:43) ChrisM, that would be bad |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:43) that's a bit different, i'm talking about intellectual property owners more extensively determing the terms of use |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:43) I definately don't think that taxes on media or hardware is the way to go. |
| <ChrisM> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:43) rmah: Right, but when everything starts moving to these media cartel owned devices, we will end up paying a royalty regardless. |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:43) ChrisM, I certainly hope not...but you may be right. |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:44) Lot's of hidden taxes these days |
| <ChrisM> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:44) rmah: It will happen if the MPAA gets its way. |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:44) Too true |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:44) The tax question is one that we need not address at this time |
| <ChrisM> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:44) RobbiH: Contraire, I think its at the heart of the issue. |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:44) exactly |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:44) Robbi, well at least everyone can agree on hating taxes :) |
| <Omnifarious> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:45) I think there should be sliding scale of laws based on corporation size. |
| <Omnifarious> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:45) Make it more and more difficult for corporations to be huge. |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:45) Omnifarious, that doesn't seem very fair to me |
| <ChrisM> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:45) RobbiH: If you write a report and save it on a DVD, you will be paying a royalty to access your own work! |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:45) I live in a community the second one in the nation ever to speak about taaxing the internet and I can tell yuou we dont want to go there |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:45) robbih, i dont see why not |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:46) Let's not argue about what to argue about |
| <Omnifarious> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:46) *laugh* |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:46) hehehe |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:46) yes, let's all just killall -9 yt & rm -rf /society |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:46) FallLine, you forgot the ; |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:46) At this time in these United States wehave a moritorium on taxes and the Internet this is a stay of exicution |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:47) Robbi, you hear about the EU internet tax proposals? |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:47) robbih, i think the internet should be taxed, as long as traditional companies are |
| <Omnifarious> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:47) No he didn't. |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:47) The day will come and the politco gloves come off and then all hell breaks loose and we all become tax evaders as well |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:47) not that i'm a fan of taxes, but the system should be as equitable as is reasonably possible |
| <ChrisM> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:47) rmah: Wont be long and people like me will be going to jail for unauthorized access to public media. |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:48) and creating artificial differentiation is not equitable |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:48) RobbiH, we aren't already? |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:48) ChrisM, and most people will think you deserve it |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:48) "Flagrent disregard for the law" and all that |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:49) OK then you explain to me how if a person in Albequerque sells a poduct to someone in Singapore he collects the taxes and then ou explain to me as to how the tax is determined by where the purchase was made from in Albureque or in sinapore and how they report it |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:49) I'd say the best way is to: |
| <ChrisM> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:49) rmah: I've never cracked a computer, ever, even though I can program and use Linux(what the media likes to term the "hackers" OS). Heh. All I'm guilty of is accessing DVD disks that I purchased on a Linux OS. |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:50) Incorporate the Cayman Islands |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:50) Which owns a company in Panama through a blind trust |
| <Omnifarious> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:50) It should be the source city. |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:50) Which owns a company in Swizerland to do the marketing |
| <sxpert> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:50) robbieH : good point |
| <Omnifarious> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:50) THe place where the good comes from. |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:50) And has the servers outsourced to an ASP in Australia |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:50) robbih, all I ask for is if a consumer is faced with a choice between buying as his local brick and mortar or some store online, that taxes not play a role in his decision |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:50) they distort the economy |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:50) And bills through a service in New York |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:51) Ships via a...etc..you get the picture |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:51) s/as/at/ |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:51) The whole arguement of taxes is far to broad to be discussed |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:51) Taxes are easily avoided if you really want to |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:51) Even if I want to pay them it gets to fuzzy |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:52) As long as they don't get warm too, I'm ok with it |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:52) so basically we should just give online stores an advantage for doing nothing |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:52) hehe |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:52) FallLine, online stores in the US still have to pay sales tax |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:52) seeing as so many of them do just tham nothing |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:52) Just like phone based mailorder |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:52) rmah, but less in many cases |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:52) true enuf just like mail order |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:52) FallLine, no...the rules are exactly the same |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:53) true as well |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:53) The internet tax moratorium is about no NEW taxes specifically aimed at the internet |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:53) yes |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:53) acess taxes etc |
| <sxpert> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:53) then you order through the net and call a 800 number to pay -> no tax... |
| <sxpert> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:53) this is just stupid |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:53) In a few years, the distinction between "online" businesses and non-online will not exist |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:54) sxpert, theoretically, the consumer is responsible for paying the sales tax... |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:54) if 1) the merchant did not |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:54) no it wont today many people I know wont do business with a company if they dont exist on the net |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:54) rmah, but many mail orders ARE required to pay |
| <sxpert> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:54) yes, right... not iin interstate commerce IIRC |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:54) and 2) the state where he resides charges sales tax |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:54) FallLine, oh sure, but GETTING the money is a big inter-state issue these days |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:55) rmah, not really, i work for a company that does just that |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:55) For example, by law, if I buy something from an online store in Nevada... |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:55) The Nevada company should collect state and city sales tax |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:55) And in the international spectrum how are you gonna solve the problem |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:55) They may collect the state tax, but I doubt they collect the city tax |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:55) not online (at the moment), but through mail order (though we're not exactly your traditional mail order) |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:55) Robbi, I don't think you can |
| <Omnifarious> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:55) Well, Internet taxes are kinda interesting, but, I must go. |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:56) Personally, I think the era of the nation-state is ending |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:56) We probably won't see the end of it in our lifetimes, but the peak is over |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:56) i'm not so sure of that |
| <sxpert> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:56) sales tax have to die |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:56) Oh, nations will always exist... |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:56) How can the small Internet business collect much less assess the taxes owed |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:56) they represent nearly 30% of most states revenues |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:56) that's a significant amount of money |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:56) But the concept of the nation-state as the dominant entity is declining |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:57) Robbi, it's tough |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:57) true enuf |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:57) robbih, certainly if they're taking a credit card number and delivering they CAN |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:57) my company does it |
| <sxpert> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:57) whatever, we are taxed too much... they should raise taxes on tobacco & alcool... |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:57) As my dad used to say, "Life's not fair, get used to it" |
| <sxpert> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:57) and legalize-it(tm) and charge a hell of taxes on it |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:57) sxpert, haha...that just leads to bootlegging |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:57) so in the end we loose |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:58) as much as I dislike taxes, especially certain taxes, I think if you have to tax somewhere, taxing consumption is a good place to start |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:58) Much is being privatized and will continue to for the foreseeable future |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:58) For example, where I live (NYC)... |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:58) taxing as the topic is, we owe it to ourselves to be prepared |
| <sxpert> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:58) soon the gov will be privatized |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:58) ...many *public* parks are maintained by private consortia |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:59) local companies pay for the upkeep, security, maintenence, etc. |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:59) Yosemte is owned by Japanese business |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:59) They pick up the trash, kick out the bums, etc. |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:59) Those private/public parks are MUCH nicer now. |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:59) given the incompetence of many of these governing bodies that makes sense |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 21:59) Did you know NYC used to have only private police forces? |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:00) Back in the 1800's |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:00) And private fire companies |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:00) You don't pay, you don't get the fire put out or the burglers chased :) |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:00) I'm not sure that's such a good idea, but... |
| <sxpert> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:01) the problem is that state employees have no incentive to work better... the money, instead of going into employees pockets is lost along the travel down to the guy, and down the drain somewhere |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:01) trickle down economics |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:02) haha |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:02) a lot of the problems are simply management issues |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:02) government doesn't seem to attract the best these days |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:02) If it ever did |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:02) hehe that's an understatement |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:02) but even there |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:03) look to the issue of Mexico in the internation spectrum as a model for poor politics and economics |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:03) Then again, think how scary it would be if the people in the government were smart and hardworking! I shudder to think. |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:03) try france |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:03) ehhe |
| <sxpert> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:03) Im a "high tech" guy.. for the same job, the state of PA pays about 32000 a year, private companies pay at least 70000. think this is not a reason ? |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:03) sxpert, PA stinks |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:03) hehe |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:03) it's got to be the worst run and most corrupt state in the union |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:03) Doesn't anyone want to give back through public service anymore? |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:04) dont even get me started about PennDOT ;P |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:04) PA? You near Philadelphia? Or in Harrisburg? |
| <sxpert> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:04) no, harrisburg |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:04) Sure but I am afraid too. I attend local city council meetings and that is enuf |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:04) me, i'm outside philly |
| <sxpert> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:04) fallline : you working at penndot? |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:04) Robbi, you are a brave soul |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:04) sxpert, i'd have shot myself in the head by now if I were |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:04) I used to live in Philly! |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:05) Fall, on the main line? Or above NE Philly? |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:05) rmah, mainline |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:05) Nice area |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:05) transplant of a couple years though |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:05) See that yellow stripe on the hiway its modeled after the one on my back |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:05) yeah, if you like suburban life |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:05) Robbi, heh |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:06) it's a great suburb in many ways, i'll give it that |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:06) but all in all, I'd rather be in seattle |
| <sxpert> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:06) fallline : have a question : why is that the damn lines on the roads can't be seen when it rains ? |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:06) FallLine, move to NYC...it's much more...interesting. |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:06) nor so brave as cowardly I am afraid to turn my back on the politcos |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:06) sxpert, heeh I dont work for PennDOT, ask the guy who paid their kick backs |
| <sxpert> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:06) fallline : is that due to the shitty paint they use or something ? |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:06) sxpert, well, otherwise, you'd drive faster |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:06) Falline I am in Tacoma |
| <sxpert> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:07) rmah: wahhhhahahahhahaha |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:07) i go to work off 202 |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:07) that thing has been under construction for like 2 years now |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:07) FallLine, that's nothing... |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:07) i swear, I alone could've accomplished moe than they |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:07) s/moe/more |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:08) I moved to NY back in '91 and the West Side Highway has been under construction continously since then |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:08) rmah, well so has PHL |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:08) And I don't think they're gonna "finish" for another decade or something. |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:08) airport that is |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:08) hehe |
| <sxpert> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:08) rmah : how long is that thing supposed to be ? |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:08) only since the early 60s or something |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:08) hehe |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:08) Ther is hiway construction in the area that three generation s have left undone |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:08) Oh, they're not building...they're fixing |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:08) and 76, *shudder* |
| <sxpert> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:09) I didn't know NYC was on a fault line... |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:09) how it is that a major city can have such a pathetic freeway is beyond me |
| <sxpert> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:09) and 76 you have to pay to access the f***g thing |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:09) FallLine, at least there are highways in Philly |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:09) whats your drive time like falline |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:09) i love those 10feet long on and offramps ;P |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:09) well I live in the mainline, but I commute to u penn and back |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:10) he is speaking of the difference between them |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:10) FallLine, school or work? I went to Penn |
| <sxpert> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:10) fallline: I nkow what you mean... I f***d my car on one of these... |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:10) work is out near malvern (the other direction), school is downtown |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:10) my house is about midway |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:10) hehe |
| <sxpert> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:10) good choice |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:11) What school are you in? |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:11) Wharton? |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:11) wharton |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:11) The traffic out of Seattle today is at a standstill for many hours the hiway system was never designed for the traffic as it exists |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:11) Heh, how'd I guess :) |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:11) robbih, well seattle's city planning has been poor |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:11) but the roads are still quite well designed |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:11) if you had the same roads as philly, seattle would've exploded long ago |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:12) rmah, heeh |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:12) what'd you study |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:12) Things could be worse I have a friend who works in the Silicon vally he can see his place of employment but its an hour by car and you can not walk to it |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:12) yeah, i'm not saying seattle and california dont have traffic problems |
| <sxpert> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:12) fallline : well I can tell you that Harrisburg sucks too wrt traffic. 10 inches on/off ramps, bridges clogged up fro 700 to 1000, and capitol police are just a bunch of parking nazis... |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:12) but the roads in philly unnecessarily aggrivate the problem |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:13) How can you say well designed with reverse banked turns and such |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:13) whereas I cant say that for seattle |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:13) Fall, I did SystemsEng. (cross Moore School/Wharton thing) |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:13) cool |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:13) what're you into now |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:13) The only thing they apparently designed well was water run off |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:14) robbih, well I5 for instance has exits that are longer than 5 feet |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:14) Between jobs...left just this friday |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:14) Dot-com stuff |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:14) and has 4+ lanes in each direction in many parts |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:14) 76 has 2 lanes in each direction, with NO emergency lane or space what to speak of |
| <sxpert> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:15) not even phones at some points, for miles |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:15) and philly is atleast 2x as big as seattle |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:15) I 5 has miles of tow away lanes |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:15) FallLine, I lived in center city for a few years...and the streets down there...talk about narrow |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:15) yeah |
| <natalie_portman_with_hot_grits> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:15) where the hell can i watch this fucking debate |
| <natalie_portman_with_hot_grits> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:15) fuckign /. |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:15) natalie, I thought you were already at harvard? |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:15) the only thing philly has going for it is the commuter lines, which were setup a long time ago, thank god |
| <natalie_portman_with_hot_grits> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:16) rmah, only if you want me to be there my sweet |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:16) Do the little green trollies still run? |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:16) and a distinct lack of growth |
| <natalie_portman_with_hot_grits> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:16) now where the fuck is a mirror. |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:16) rmah, depends on where you mean |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:16) west philly |
| <sxpert> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:16) yeah and don't get me started on finding a parking spot to go to the 2600 meeting in philly |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:16) i'm referring more to the R5 and such |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:16) oh |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:16) sxpert, heh...parking is a breeze in philly |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:16) rmah, yeah I think so, though I dont pay much attention to them |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:16) compared to NY |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:17) I hear that during the weekday, there are 4 million cars in manhattan and 2 million parking spaces |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:17) hahah |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:17) A bit of a problem :) |
| <sxpert> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:17) same goes for SF,,, |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:17) msot people I know in NYC either take a cab or a limo |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:17) and have a car well outside of the city |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:17) FallLine, I kept my car for 3 months when I moved here... |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:17) if they're fortunate that is |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:17) hehe |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:18) ...I'm not the swiftest person in the world :) |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:18) hehehe |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:18) Parking was costing me almost $300/month and I only drove like once every couple weeks! |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:18) rmah, what kind of work are you doing in nyc, and where part do you live in |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:19) I live between Chealsea and Clinton (ex Hells Kitchen) |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:19) I was working at a dot-com until this friday |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:19) Had a high falutin' title...whatever |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:19) ah, my sister lives near near or in Chelsea...just moved up in a month or two ago |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:19) ehehh |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:19) s/near// |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:20) Chelsea's getting expensive these days |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:20) Hell, all of Manhattan is getting expensive |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:20) yeah, well that'd figure, a lot of the salaries have too |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:20) No kiddin' -- hiring tech folks is murder |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:20) Speakin' of which, what does your sister do? :) |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:20) it's incredible, like my sister 1st year out of college (undergrad) working in investment banking... |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:20) analyst? |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:20) she and most of her friends are going to bring in atleast 100k this year |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:20) i banking |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:20) heh |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:21) shrug...that's enought to get by |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:21) not enough to live well |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:21) true true |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:21) but it's still a rapid explosion |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:21) yeah, salaries have shot up recently |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:21) but so have rents, so it all evens out |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:21) heh exactly |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:21) if she does well, she could make a LOT though |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:22) is she at a name firm or a boutique? |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:22) h&q --> chase --> JP Morgan (I think) |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:22) Oh...I used to work at JPMorgan |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:22) On the FX desk, back in '93 or so |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:22) she's officially working for H&Q, which is owned by chase now, which is being acquired by JP morgan (i think) |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:23) Hmmm...I thought H&Q was in San Franciso... |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:23) yeah, they are, but they've got H&Q people doing tech and what not out chase's offices in midtown |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:23) ah |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:23) JPMorgan is the shit...they've got money coming out of their butts |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:24) When I worked there, the friggin' secretaries had 21" monitors and they had fiber to every desk |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:24) And that was back in '93! |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:24) yeah, it's lucractive if you can hitch a ride, but I still think i'll stay on the entreprenerial side of things |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:24) I prefer small companies as well... |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:24) Did my time at the big ones (Time Warner and JPMorgan) and didn't like it much |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:25) Time Warner especially sucked |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:25) yeah |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:25) What do you do, BTW? |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:25) the big company aspect bothers me, but also investment banking feels a bit ...well empty to me |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:26) me, i'm doing MIS work right now for a med tech startup |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:26) It's not the "big" so much as the political squabbles |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:26) To me, anyway |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:26) yeah, but that's what I mean |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:26) Drugs? Equipment? Software? |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:26) medical devices |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:27) Or that satanic genetic stuff? |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:27) :) |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:27) Cool |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:27) heh nah, potentially very lucrative, but nothing like the supposed value of these genomic companies |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:27) I think it's sort of like AI... |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:28) ...the true value of the genome project won't be realized for many years |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:28) yeah |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:28) the only companies in that industry i'd invest in right now are the suppliers, i.e., genometrix |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:28) who're making mcuh of the machinery |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:28) lets see the gentectic code has been mapped but not yet understood |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:28) Do they make those gene chips? |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:29) hmmm |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:29) Robbi, exactly...will be a while before the full ramifications are known |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:29) a variety of a things, computers for crunching numbers...etc |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:29) The map still sounds like there are places that say here there be dragons |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:30) Heh, that's probably *most* of the genome |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:30) i'm not terribly familiar with that, but my parents are in on it pre-IPO, looks pretty promising |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:30) you nkow what's really scaring me though |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:30) Al gore and all his talk of regulating prices |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:30) That everone's left? |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:30) in the drug industry that is |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:30) Ah, that's just populist claptrap |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:30) i could only hope |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:31) I mean, I do think that some drugs are priced too high... |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:31) yeah some of them are, but the aggregate the system is pretty effective |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:31) Does that mean hes cutting my HMO out of the loop? |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:31) ...but Gore wasn't a price fixer when he was in the Senate |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:31) I think gore's gone more liberal over the years though |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:32) Hes looking for a vote remember politics dont mean anything |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:32) he's not nearly as centrist as clinton is |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:32) Yeah? Hmmm.... |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:32) Well, Gore's daughter's husband's family is big in Republican circles |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:32) well politics or not, I'm afraid that if there's enough popular support, things will change for the worse in an already very tough industry |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:32) So maybe they'll get her to yell at him :) |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:32) heh |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:32) Neither Gore nor Bush get the Internet however nor do they understand our issues |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:33) i think the internet is overhyped anyways |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:33) Heh |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:33) not to say there's nothing worthwhile about it.... |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:33) At the consumer level, I agree |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:33) Hyoed or over hyped its heare |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:33) but to make it a major presidential issue, seems silly |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:33) I agree |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:34) But price fixing on medicines is like withholding information it can be just wrong |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:34) Health care is a toughy |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:34) I believe in market capitalism in general... |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:34) yes, it's a tough beast |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:35) ...but for health care, I'm not sure a pure market system would be a good thing |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:35) but I dont believe the HMOs are the answer |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:35) yes it is and how can we influence the issues on something that affects us all |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:35) Not enough people will make the price/quality tradeoff |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:35) before the HMOs, doctors shafted employers/insurance companies |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:35) hey! |
| <sxpert> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:35) fallline : HMOs suck |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:35) now insurance companies shaft doctors and patients |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:35) on the aggregate, I have to say the latter is the worse |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:35) my dad and sister and brother are doctors... |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:35) The HMO s are part of the problem at times but they are the only way I can afford health care |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:35) ...so watch what you say, bud. |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:35) Heh |
| <sxpert> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:36) the french system works pretty well.. |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:36) rmah, I nkow lots of doctors |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:36) i'm not saying _all_ doctors did it |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:36) Heh |
| <sxpert> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:36) that is the social security/RX drugs... are taken care of by the state. |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:36) but enough did it to make it overly expensive |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:36) sxpert, it's far from ideal too |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:36) Too much goes into end of life care, IMO. |
| <sxpert> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:36) well maybe, but it works a lot better |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:36) Not enough to prevention |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:36) I know astronauts but they cant get me a free ride any more than my doctor can see me for free |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:36) rmah, I agree |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:37) Robbi, move to a small town and marry a doctor |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:37) doctors are hard up these days |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:37) Is she cute |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:37) In small towns, dentists, doctors, optomitrists...they're all in collusion. |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:37) unless you're in one of the rare specialities |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:37) where you're basically taking cash before you perform |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:37) FallLine, oh...I don't know...most M.D.'s I know make plenty |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:38) rmah, doing what |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:38) They generally spend it all to, but whatever. |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:38) Umm...radioligists, surgens, |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:38) 1 anesthesioligist (sp?) |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:38) private practice? |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:38) most doctors I know pay out plenty as well |
| <sxpert> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:38) yeah, and talk about idiot surgeons forgetting stuff (any kind) iside the patients |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:38) yeah... |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:38) Oh, I know one researcher |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:38) She doesn't make much |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:38) well researchers are a different animal |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:38) I would be happy if my doctor forgot his bill |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:38) they're not very much affected by the HMOs |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:38) sxpert, that's pretty rare |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:39) Though surgeons aren't the brightest |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:39) clinical work is very different |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:39) Yeah, all the MD's I know that practice are in private practice. |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:39) So, perhaps my sample is skewed :) |
| <sxpert> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:39) well. it happens, usually when the guy has been operating for 36 hours consecutively because the hospital cut on guys to cut costs |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:40) well virtually every doctor I know, which is a lot (given my industry, backgroudn,e tc) |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:40) does their best to scare their kids and friends away from the field |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:40) Well, it takes disipline |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:40) they believe that not only is it bad, but they also believe it's going to get worse |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:40) I think that HMO shouldnt practise medicine however and doctors shouldnt be in the insurance business |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:40) It's not an easy route to respect and money |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:40) certainly not these days |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:41) And I don't think it should be easy either |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:41) sure |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:41) but on the other hand |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:41) if those docs are in private practice and deal with HMOs |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:41) Does anyone rember what they call the fellow that finishes last in his class in medicine? |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:41) then they know what it's like to send a bill to the HMO |
| <sxpert> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:41) robbih: it's not HMOs that illegally practise medicine, but bean counters inside these HMOs |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:41) Robbie, "Dr" |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:41) get paid half that amount a year later |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:41) and have to squabble about everything |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:42) FallLine, yeah...HMO's suck |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:42) But such is life |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:42) Robbie, sorry about your joke :) |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:42) is Okay |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:42) heh |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:43) Some are really smart though... |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:43) I know this one guy, who would always finish his board's in 1/2 the time it took the other Dr's |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:43) Yes they are and when someone in your profession has a problem where do you seek help? |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:43) The examiners always thought he wanted to go the bathroom or something when he got up to leave |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:43) :) |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:44) well |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:44) Robbi, eh? Don't understand your question... |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:44) med school is also very expensive |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:44) I understand that it soesnt make sense to me either |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:44) it costs something like a half million dollars minimum to educate a doc these days |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:44) Let me refrase it |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:45) sp rephrase it |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:45) FallLine, costs less than an cruise missile...seems like a decent deal to me |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:45) When a technical person has a proplem do you seek the Internet for solutions |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:45) Sometimes |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:45) rmah, hehe |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:46) Doctors today are using it extensively as well |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:46) Funny story... |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:46) A few years ago, I asked my dad (a doctor) if he used e-mail |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:46) He said, "nope" |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:46) Later, I asked how he got his diagnosis to the hospital. |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:47) He said, "I type it into the computer and then press this button" |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:47) "The people at the hospital see it then?" |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:47) My father retired from a company a few years ago because they wanted to put a computer on his desk |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:47) Doh! |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:47) Heh |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:47) heh i actually know an intern ( a radiologist) in DC in which the hospital is paying for a T1 to be installed in his and his wifes house |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:48) Today he cannot got a few hours without checking his email |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:48) Robbi, a friend of mine took charge of a branch of United Health Care in Cleavland |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:48) so they can view slides and such |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:48) When he got there his first day, he asked his secretary, "where's my computer?" |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:48) She said, "VP's don't use computers!" |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:48) Heh...turned out he was the first person in his position at UHC to get a PC on his desk! |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:48) heh |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:49) This was in '95 or so...jeez |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:49) my stepfather still doesnt use computers directly |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:49) not directly? |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:49) I was good friends with several persons at Case Western years ago |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:49) bright businessman, studied math, even worked on early computers, but just doesnt have th patience to figure them out or somehting, it cracks me up |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:49) yeah |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:49) heh |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:49) he has his secretary read his email and stuff |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:49) i'm like wtf |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:49) oh man |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:49) why dont you just learn |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:50) I cna teach you in about 30 minutes |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:50) Then what would his secretary do? |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:50) heheh |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:50) still does most of his work by dictation too |
| <FallLine> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:50) it cracks me up |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:50) Robbi, I went to CWRU my freshman year...strange school |
| <RobbiH> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:50) I have seen the rise of computers over the years from big iron to the PC and now where is it going? |
| <rmah> (Sun, October 01, 2000 at 22:51) FallLine, wow...I didn't know people still did that |
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