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[16:57]  You: we should go to the meeting.
[16:57]  Ansible Berkman: yes :)
[16:58]  Egon Spengler is Online
[16:59]  Egon Spengler: gene, hi
[16:59]  Ansible Berkman: hello everyone :)
[16:59]  GeneKoo Li: hey egon
[16:59]  GeneKoo Li: Hi all
[16:59]  Ellie Brewster: Hi Ansible
[16:59]  Egon Spengler: the video is uploading now :)
[16:59]  Ansible Berkman: have fun Cordelia :)
[17:00]  Egon Spengler: did I just stumble into a class period?
[17:00]  Ansible Berkman: it's an at-large meeting :)
[17:00]  Egon Spengler: ah, great
[17:00]  GeneKoo Li: yes, it's my office hours and at-large gathering
[17:00]  Ansible Berkman: take it away Gene :)
[17:00]  GeneKoo Li: well i'm just here to answer questions and do whatever ppl want me to do :)
[17:01]  Ellie Brewster: That Cordelia, she shure can talk
[17:01]  You: I'd be very interested to know how people have been participating in the class so far and what has been working or now working for you, if anyone wants to share.
[17:01]  GeneKoo Li: Hi everyone, I don't know if we need to be really formal about this, it depends on what you'd like to do
[17:02]  Ansible Berkman: it's not her fault Ellie, she's on a wireless connection
[17:02]  Ironman28 Tenjin: I've downloaded and watched all the lectures online
[17:02]  Ironman28 Tenjin: but this is my first SL meeting
[17:02]  GeneKoo Li: So are you interested in "taking" the class
[17:02]  You: are you new to SL?
[17:02]  GeoffMcG Xi: same here; and I've been hitting the readings.
[17:02]  Ironman28 Tenjin: yes
[17:03]  You: that's cool, both about readings and coming to SL.
[17:03]  GeneKoo Li: Very cool, very exciting
[17:03]  GeneKoo Li: well what is is that you are seeking from the class experience?
[17:03]  Ironman28 Tenjin: I appreciate it when you address the at large participants in the videos, Rebecca
[17:03]  You: great.
[17:03]  Ironman28 Tenjin: it makes me feel included!
[17:03]  You: i think it is quite a remarkable example that you all set by participating in this way.
[17:04]  Ironman28 Tenjin: it's very cool...I wish we could do more
[17:04]  You: you do it because the substance is genuinely valuable to you, and if it isn't, you would stop.
[17:04]  GeoffMcG Xi: thats right, rebecca.
[17:04]  Holly Suisei: For me, I'm still trying to figure out how the different segments of the class work together
[17:04]  You: the enrolled students are getting grades, so they have a certain amount of coercive force in the mix that isn't exactly in the spirit of the class.
[17:05]  Ironman28 Tenjin: yeah...and I understand there are limits on the number of people who can participate in SL at one time
[17:05]  Ironman28 Tenjin: it would be cool if at large people could look on if there's room
[17:05]  GeneKoo Li: Right... so this is the artificial hard limit on the class participation
[17:05]  You: Holly, say a bit more about what you mean.
[17:06]  You: Do you mean the lectures and SL?
[17:06]  GeneKoo Li: for example on thurs we are going to have to "close" the island b/c of the hard limit
[17:06]  Ironman28 Tenjin: ah
[17:06]  Ironman28 Tenjin: what's the limit? (out of curiosity)
[17:06]  GeneKoo Li: Ansible can explain more about that, but there are finite resources that we have to prioritize teh officially enrolled students for
[17:06]  Ansible Berkman: close to 50-60 avatars, depends on activity planned
[17:06]  Ironman28 Tenjin: interesting
[17:06]  GeneKoo Li: Hi Aphilo
[17:06]  Ellie Brewster: do you get much lag at 50?
[17:07]  Ansible Berkman: the limit refers to how much complexity the server can handle
[17:07]  Ansible Berkman: yes
[17:07]  Aphilo Aarde: hELLO
[17:07]  Holly Suisei: I enrolled as an extension student, was put on the waitlist, then encouraged to participate fully, but wasn't sure what that meant...
[17:07]  Ellie Brewster: What do you think would be an optimal number?
[17:07]  Ansible Berkman: the more avatars the more it takes for the server to compute our moves, actions etc
[17:07]  Holly Suisei: It could be me...
[17:07]  Ansible Berkman: round 40
[17:07]  Ellie Brewster: 40 is still a lot.
[17:07]  Ansible Berkman: yes it is
[17:07]  You: we've been trying to make as full a class experience available as possible for the at-large participants.
[17:07]  You: the enrolled students do a few things every week.
[17:08]  You: they watch the videos and do the readings and then write a journal entry about it.
[17:08]  Ellie Brewster: Its a great thing you're doing.
[17:08]  GeoffMcG Xi: i think its remarkabe that you even think about at-large participants
[17:08]  Aphilo Aarde: Is there a way to participate without being avatar-present, i.e. chat only?
[17:08]  Ellie Brewster: I was wondering...
[17:08]  You: and they come into SL once for a class meeting here where we do exercises that tie in with the lectures.
[17:08]  Hart Zhao is Online
[17:08]  You: usually there is an SL-related assignment too.
[17:08]  GeneKoo Li: As the class progresses a lot of it will move over into doing class projects
[17:08]  You: As at-large participants, you can also see the lectures and do the readings.
[17:09]  You: you can do the journals and you can come to Sl and do most of the SL-related assignments.
[17:09]  Egon Spengler: I feel like the wiki could use a bit more structure, to make the possible points of participation clearer
[17:09]  Aphilo Aarde: Are we able to use scratch?
[17:09]  Ironman28 Tenjin: there was one lecture that referred to an upcoming class using "Scratch" to learn about code, but then the next video was abridged and I couldn't find the lesson!
[17:09]  You: during these office hours, we'll also have class-like meetings that can be similar to the ones that the enrolled students have.
[17:09]  GeneKoo Li: I guess I would throw it back to all of you as to what you would like to get out of an experience
[17:09]  Ellie Brewster: I agree with Egon
[17:09]  GeneKoo Li: I"m not sure we even explained that well to the extension school students...
[17:09]  You: Back to scratch in a minute.
[17:10]  GeneKoo Li: it's weird b/c we are doing 3 different courses
[17:10]  You: I want to address Egon and Ellie's concern first.
[17:10]  Ironman28 Tenjin: three different levels of the same course?
[17:10]  Ansible Berkman: excuse me, i'll be right back :)
[17:10]  You: One of our big challenges is to come up with a way to have at-large participation that is scalable and that doesn't take away from the time we are committed to spending for the enrolled students.
[17:10]  Aphilo Aarde: it is interesting that you're doing three different courses, but mostly about the same argument, in different contexts, law, etc., and about the same texts.
[17:11]  You: So we're hoping to find a way that the wiki can start to develop structure of its own without us superimposing it.
[17:11]  GeneKoo Li: yoiu might think about it as 3 different "tracks" too, or 3 different "audiences"
[17:11]  Ironman28 Tenjin: yes, the wiki seems like a good tool for that
[17:11]  GeoffMcG Xi: that seems to be the whole idea of the class--structure without imposition.
[17:11]  You: we're kind of looking for community leaders among the at-large participants who want to make it their project to try to organize their peers to do something great with the resources we're providing.
[17:11]  Ironman28 Tenjin: we (at large people) can contribute to the wiki, right?
[17:11]  You: And we want to act in a supporting role for those community leaders.
[17:11]  Ironman28 Tenjin: that's a good idea
[17:12]  You: you can contribute!
[17:12]  You: if any of you want to start organizing, all you have to do is go do it!
[17:12]  You: For scratch, we are not allowed to distribute the link freely because it is still in beta.
[17:12]  Ironman28 Tenjin: ah
[17:12]  You: but i can give you the link because you are participants if you agree not to distribute it further.
[17:12]  Aphilo Aarde: Who's interested in working together on a cyberone benkler "Wealth of networks" wiki, combined perhaps with other social theoriests, around some specific questions.
[17:12]  You: if any of you want it, say so and I'll IM it to you.
[17:13]  Ironman28 Tenjin: that would be great!
[17:13]  GeneKoo Li: Aphilo, that sounds like a great starting point
[17:13]  GeoffMcG Xi: I'd like to take a look at the link
[17:13]  Holly Suisei: I'd be interested in both the wiki and access to scratch!
[17:13]  Aphilo Aarde: I agree not to distribute it further.
[17:13]  Ironman28 Tenjin: me too!
[17:13]  GeoffMcG Xi: ditto
[17:13]  You: we don't have a video lesson, but we do have a tutorial and some help pages that are available.
[17:13]  Holly Suisei: that sounds great
[17:13]  Aphilo Aarde: I'm interested Rebecca, too, in scratch.
[17:13]  You: You all have access to the wiki already. all you have to do is create an account.
[17:13]  GeneKoo Li: I"m curious tho given this context -- would learning lindenscript be too hard?
[17:14]  Aphilo Aarde: ok.
[17:14]  Ironman28 Tenjin: how hard is it?
[17:14]  You: there is information on how to do that on the front page of the wiki (and a link in the upper right corner for doing it).
[17:14]  You: Both Scratch and the wiki are fairly easy.
[17:14]  You: Wiki is easier than scratch.
[17:14]  You: But Scratch is really fun.
[17:14]  GeneKoo Li: Yeah Scratch should be a really much easier way to get intorduced to scripting
[17:14]  You: Since so many of you are interested, I will put the info right into the chat.
[17:14]  Ironman28 Tenjin: how about lindenscript (relatively)?
[17:14]  Aphilo Aarde: is scratch like visual basic, or easier?
[17:14]  Aphilo Aarde: ok.
[17:15]  You: It is much easier that visual basic or LSL.
[17:15]  You: It is a graphical programming language.
[17:15]  Egon Spengler: Also, if anyone is interested in reading a blog post I wrote about CyberOne, I think it makes a good jumping in point for seeing how to participate
[17:15]  GeoffMcG Xi: and for those of use with no programming experience, are we in over our heads (not including Wiki).
[17:15]  You: instead of writing code, you fit puzzle pieces together.
[17:15]  GeneKoo Li: Geoff, not at all
[17:15]  Ironman28 Tenjin: Egon: that would be great
[17:15]  Egon Spengler: it's at: http://www.getdemocracy.com/news/2006/09/a-harvard-course-available-on-democracy/#postcomment
[17:15]  Aphilo Aarde: I'm interested Egon.
[17:15]  GeoffMcG Xi: oh good.
[17:15]  You: It is intended for people with no programming experience.
[17:15]  You: And you could also send email to the course account with questions.
[17:15]  GeneKoo Li: I think if you want to learn programming, Scratch would be a great introduction
[17:15]  You: On our course website there is a link to a page called Scratch on the right hand sidebar.
[17:16]  Aphilo Aarde: Thanks, Egon.
[17:16]  You: If you click on it, you will get to a page on the website for scratch with a link to password protected download page.
[17:16]  GeneKoo Li: for those who have some technical background, learning to script in this world might be very attractive, but not at all required for the course
[17:16]  Ironman28 Tenjin: cool! thank you!
[17:16]  You: IM me if you have trouble getting to the page.
[17:16]  You: Scratch is really really fun.
[17:16]  GeoffMcG Xi: thanks.
[17:17]  GeoffMcG Xi: why?
[17:17]  Aphilo Aarde: Thanks, Rebecca.
[17:17]  GeneKoo Li: becca, is more instruction necessary for folks to start scratching
[17:17]  GeoffMcG Xi: I know nothing about it.
[17:17]  You: But we did that for the law students because they wouldn't have anything as cool as SL to play with.
[17:17]  GeneKoo Li: (Though they could if they wanted to, and some might)
[17:17]  You: For me, I'm very interested in learning scripting in SL so that I can do stuff in here.
[17:17]  You: No particularly, but it will take some perseverance.
[17:17]  Ironman28 Tenjin: so, the students who attend the physical lectures don't participate in SL?
[17:18]  You: It is a good idea to watch the abridged lecture from tuesday to get a pep talk from my dad about perseverance when something like that is frustrating.
[17:18]  GeneKoo Li: this week is the crossover week in which law students will come here
[17:18]  GeneKoo Li: wehther they choose to stay is up to them and the shape the proejcts take
[17:19]  Ironman28 Tenjin: ah...when you said the island would be closed on Thursday, does that mean it will be closed to at large participants?
[17:19]  You: It will only be closed from 8-11pm EST.
[17:19]  You: Otherwise it will be open as usual.
[17:19]  Ironman28 Tenjin: ah...okay
[17:19]  You: We may not even have to close it, actually, except from 9-10.
[17:19]  You: Hi Grace.
[17:19]  GeneKoo Li: Hi grace!
[17:19]  Aphilo Aarde: Hi Grace1
[17:19]  GeneKoo Li: Hey!
[17:19]  Grace McDunnough: Hi, sorry I am late. I have poetry ;-)
[17:19]  Grace McDunnough: Hello all
[17:20]  You: cool.
[17:20]  GeoffMcG Xi: hiya
[17:20]  GeneKoo Li: Actually this week the topic for lecture will be synthetic worlds
[17:20]  Aphilo Aarde: Welcome back, Ansible
[17:20]  GeneKoo Li: Ansible and I will be the humble panelists
[17:20]  Ansible Berkman: :) ty
[17:20]  GeneKoo Li: Egon here has prepared a video to introduce the concept to the law students which we can watch in a bit
[17:20]  You: The lecture this week should be amazing.
[17:21]  You: We are discussing virtual worlds from a theoretical perspective.
[17:21]  Egon Spengler: I think Ansible will need to queue it
[17:21]  GeneKoo Li: I have to say (and will say again on Tues) that I'm kind of an outsider still looking in on these wpaces
[17:21]  You: Basically what it means for all of us to be here doing what we are doing and what kind of governance and norms we can set up for ourselves.
[17:21]  GeneKoo Li: For those of you just showing up we've been talking about what role "at large" participants can play in the course
[17:21]  Aphilo Aarde: I have some questions about the world of SL.
[17:22]  You: So far we've found that at-large participants want a bit more structure and more of a way to interact directly with each other.
[17:22]  Grace McDunnough: That would be great.
[17:22]  GeneKoo Li: We are encouraging people who are not officially enrolled in the course to identify what they'd like to get out of the course and organize towards getting it
[17:22]  You: We have the wiki as a space for that, but it is still seeking some leaders to help make it work better for people as a space.
[17:22]  You: we could also think about ways for the at-large participants to help create community in SL.
[17:22]  Holly Suisei: I think it would be cool to meet regularly
[17:22]  GeneKoo Li: so if some of you have a particular interest, please by all means let's discuss what it might be and how we can support it
[17:23]  Aphilo Aarde: I'd like that, as well. Getting to know folks in cyberspace is more difficult than in real life.
[17:23]  You: For instance, it would be great if people were interested in organizing some discussion groups about the lectures and readings.
[17:23]  Ansible Berkman: if you start the movie from your control pannel and check the screen i just put up, you'll be able to check out the virtual world movie Dean/Egon prepared
[17:23]  GeneKoo Li: Becca and I will be providing regular office hours (like this one) but we strongly encourage you to organize your own study groups
[17:23]  Holly Suisei: I'm interested in the ideas of argument and rhetoric that form the foundation for the course, and then the ways people can create some kind of educational community that's not necessarily "academic"
[17:23]  You: If you guys are interested, we could try some of the introductory activities now that we did with the enrolled Extension students on Thursday night.
[17:24]  Egon Spengler: can you pause it ansible?
[17:24]  Ansible Berkman: anyone can pause it on their screens
[17:24]  You: Yes, the ideas about persuasion in cyberspace are very interesting.
[17:24]  Egon Spengler: oh
[17:24]  You: At the core of it is the basic fact that we don't have coercive force here in the same way as in RL.
[17:24]  Aphilo Aarde: Let's try some of the introductory exercises. Also, per Benkler, where does the market intersect with nonmarket peer production of information?
[17:25]  You: So we have to win people over by really finding a way to speak to them in a way that is meaningful to them and persuasive to them.
[17:25]  You: It is a very hard challenge and a serious skill.
[17:25]  GeoffMcG Xi: why is that?
[17:25]  You: Aphilo, I think you are posing one of the biggest challenges for the advocates of openness.
[17:25]  GeoffMcG Xi: is it a matter of how to speak over the chatter?
[17:26]  GeneKoo Li: I think it's important not to draw too sharp a distinction between virtual organizing and the same activity in RL
[17:26]  Aphilo Aarde: There's an ongoing articulation between these two 'spheres', and in this course, too. It's interesting.
[17:26]  You: It is one thing to advocate openness when we have a separate, closed market economy that gives all of us the freedom and financial security to allow us to spend our free time on open, collaborative, non-market activies.
[17:26]  GeneKoo Li: After all as Benkler notes in his chart, there are lots of RL activities that have been going on for years that are non-market, cooperative
[17:26]  You: it is another thing entirely to propose that the non-market can replace the market.
[17:26]  Hart Zhao: a recent concpet I have been discussing is the concept of the limited liability persona -
[17:26]  Egon Spengler is Offline
[17:26]  Aphilo Aarde: that is quite radical . . .
[17:26]  Ellie Brewster: You are a musician, Rebecca?
[17:27]  Grace McDunnough: I think it is a matter of value creation
[17:27]  GeneKoo Li: churches, voluntary associations, political parties, etc. have all been institutions that for centuries have operated outside the strict market economy
[17:27]  You: i am not sure we are arguing for replacing market-based activity, but possibly just for setting up norms and laws that encourage a balance between the two.
[17:27]  GeoffMcG Xi: can you give us a for instiance rebecca?
[17:27]  GeoffMcG Xi: i like the copyleft example from early lectures
[17:27]  You: one thing i am very interested in is ways in which people can set up for-profit business enterprises that do not rely on proprietary ownership of information goods.
[17:28]  You: well, for instance, i can spend my free time contributing to wikipedia, but it doesn't pay me.
[17:28]  Hart Zhao: like reputation?
[17:28]  Aphilo Aarde: I think Benkler is even making the case for a signficant domain, that re-distributes information production wealth, even dramatically.
[17:28]  You: if i didn't have another job that paid me, i would be unlikely to have the free time to spend editing wikipedia.
[17:28]  GeoffMcG Xi: i meant a legal arrangement
[17:28]  You: so we need to have some way for our economy to produce the goods and services we need so that we can participate in things that are meaningful to us for non-market reasons.
[17:29]  You: i wish i had an example.
[17:29]  Ellie Brewster: You were talking about music in the lecture.
[17:29]  GeneKoo Li: For any of you who are so inclined, I actually see this as a weird fulfillment of Marx's vision of socialism
[17:29]  You: if you are asking for an example of a non-proprietary business model, one might argue that software actually has one though it isn't often used.
[17:29]  Aphilo Aarde: Ansible, is it possible to go back over the past 2 weeks, and re-visit these conversations, as well as avatar actions for study purposes. How much of this onoing developing world archived? Rebecca, Gene?
[17:30]  You: for instance, it is possible to sell software without locking up the code under copyright indefinitely.
[17:30]  GeneKoo Li: Well benkler definitely talks about software being something that in the majority of cases is relationship- rather than product-based
[17:30]  GeneKoo Li: the other example he gives is most law firms
[17:30]  GeoffMcG Xi: i'm with you on that. And i think there are several non-proprietary business examples. But how does the legal environment encourage such associations?
[17:30]  You: it could be locked up only for the time that was necessary to get the first-to-market benefit and then released to the public domain after that.
[17:30]  GeoffMcG Xi: copyright certainly diiscourages it.
[17:30]  You: the copyright law currently discourages it because it is set up to favor people who own a lot of rights to thing.
[17:30]  You: like big media companies.
[17:31]  Egon Spengler is Online
[17:31]  Polar Slushee whispers: Cherry Blast
[17:31]  You: copyright law that placed more things in the public domain would allow more creations to be made using those things by people who do not have a lot of capital to begin with.
[17:31]  You: the whole creative commons idea is one way of using the copyright law to that effect.
[17:31]  Grace McDunnough: Wasn't copyright origianlly intended to protect individuals?
[17:32]  Ansible Berkman: Aphilo -- i am certainly archiving some of the chat here, but mostly for myself...if it's of interest, i can provide online transcripts
[17:32]  You: a creator can put creations under a limited copyright that allows the creator to get the benefits she wants while also freeing it for other people to use.
[17:32]  Grace McDunnough: It wasn't a "big media" construct... was it?
[17:32]  You: there were a lot of authors of the original copyright policy.
[17:32]  You: basically all of the federalists.
[17:32]  Hart Zhao: online transcripts should be a standard for these discussions
[17:32]  You: and i believe many of them saw it as directly connected to individual creators.
[17:33]  Aphilo Aarde: Thanks. Yes, I'm potentially interested, Ansible>
[17:33]  GeoffMcG Xi: so, it seems as if we have an opt-in option, where artists give an open license to the ublic. and we have a status quo revision optiion.
[17:33]  You: but just by giving the creators the ability to sell their rights to others they set up a scheme in which companies could own and benefit from rights.
[17:33]  Grace McDunnough: My study indicates it was to "promote" creativity
[17:33]  You: once those companies got rich, they kept getting the laws changed to extend their rights and protect their assets.
[17:33]  Aphilo Aarde: Ansible, can one archive avatar actions?
[17:34]  You: there is a question of what actually promotes creativity.
[17:34]  GeoffMcG Xi: good question!
[17:34]  You: intellectual property forms the inputs and the outputs for other intellectual property.
[17:34]  You: if you lock up enough of the inputs, it limits the "raw materials" available to other creators.
[17:34]  Ironman28 Tenjin: are you saying that creativity always builds on the past?
[17:34]  You: it can actually limit the amount of creativity possible.
[17:34]  GeoffMcG Xi: shoulders of giants as Newton said
[17:34]  You: i wouldn't necessarily say always, but certainly most of the time.
[17:35]  You: yes, shoulders of giants, exactly.
[17:35]  kimseng Cao: if you dont mind me asking is this a class session?
[17:35]  You: it isn't a formal class, but it is a discussion related to a class!
[17:35]  You: musicians give a very concrete example these days.
[17:35]  kimseng Cao: okie. could I ask another question - what is the purpose of using this format to teach the class?
[17:35]  You: most music being created doesn't entirely use sounds that are newly recorded.
[17:36]  You: there is a great range of creativity based on previously recorded sounds and synthesized sounds.
[17:36]  You: but a lot of that is locked up and technically off-limits.
[17:36]  You: good question!
[17:36]  Aphilo Aarde: Kimseng - it allows us to lessen the challenges of not being proximate to one another - the death of distance arguemtn.
[17:36]  Ansible Berkman: im sorry everyone, i have to take off. Becca or Gene, if you can save the conversation i miss and send it to me, i'll put a transcript up
[17:36]  Ansible Berkman: gnite everyone and thanks for coming :)
[17:36]  Grace McDunnough: Nite Ansible
[17:36]  Ironman28 Tenjin: bye
[17:37]  You: good night.
[17:37]  GeneKoo Li: thanks becca for those great thoughts and insights :)
[17:37]  Ellie Brewster: night Ansible!
[17:37]  kimseng Cao: i am also a teacher - i am just wondering wheter this format adds anything
[17:37]  Aphilo Aarde: Goon inght, ansible.
[17:37]  You: it also makes a difference for me that we can see each other sitting here.
[17:37]  GeoffMcG Xi: so would it be correct to create a two part typology: the Bohemian (non-pecuniary factors motivate creativity) and the industrial (for lack of a better term)?
[17:37]  You: in chat room we only see the names of the people who are talking, it doesn't give the same experience.
[17:37]  Ironman28 Tenjin: yes...this model seems to me to be about hybridity
[17:37]  GeneKoo Li: kimseng, I'm keeping a blog on that as we'd go, would love your own observations if you are doing something similar or want to join us
[17:37]  kimseng Cao: i see
[17:37]  You: yes, in a sense, Geoff.
[17:37]  Aphilo Aarde: I think seeing the conversation typed allows for a qualitatively different type of discussion.
[17:38]  kimseng Cao: gene what is your blog address?
[17:38]  You: i would like to think of it not so much as bohemian, but open.
[17:38]  GeneKoo Li: blogs.law.harvard.edu/vvvv (that's 4 "v"s)
[17:38]  You: that is, i can see open and non-market ventures, but also open and market ventures.
[17:38]  kimseng Cao: gene i dont think I am ready to do anything like this...thanks
[17:38]  GeoffMcG Xi: ok, i'm not wedded to the term.
[17:38]  You: also closed and non-market, and closed and market
[17:39]  kimseng Cao: well the fact that everyone is here talking about copyright must mean this class is working
[17:39]  GeoffMcG Xi: wait, does that make four types?
[17:39]  GeneKoo Li: I don't have benkler in front of me but he has a typology laid out in chapter... 2?
[17:39]  You: yes, two axes. four types.
[17:39]  GeoffMcG Xi: great. thanks for clarifying
[17:39]  You: hmm, i don't either.
[17:39]  You: i don't know if it maps onto this.
[17:39]  Hart Zhao: this unprecedented collaboration
[17:39]  GeneKoo Li: he actually had 6, and they were slightly different
[17:39]  You: what are they?
[17:40]  GeneKoo Li: he was also using it as a construct to get somewhere else rather than make a conclusion or use that as the only way to see the world
[17:40]  GeneKoo Li: I can go run & get th book , hold on
[17:40]  You: hmm, i'm not sure i understand what you mean by that.
[17:40]  You: but i think we're trying to do the same thing.
[17:40]  kimseng Cao: sorry someone was talking about transcripts is it available anywhere
[17:41]  You: my issue is that i'm still having a hard time imagining the open, for-profit enterprises.
[17:41]  GeneKoo Li: actually he collapsed those 4 you have into one of the axes
[17:41]  Imo Xi: cool
[17:41]  GeoffMcG Xi: apart from music remixing, you mean?
[17:41]  GeneKoo Li: Open, for-profit enterprises include many software services companeis
[17:41]  You: we can take a transcript from this chat and post it on the wiki if that would be useful.
[17:41]  You: ah, yes.
[17:41]  GeneKoo Li: the other example he gave was law firms
[17:41]  You: and he also mentions that musicians can make money by doing performances.
[17:41]  GeoffMcG Xi: well, isn't it possible to have a business model based on ad revenue and not on the creative prroduct itself?
[17:41]  You: i find that model unsatisfying.
[17:42]  kimseng Cao: i think that would be useful for teachers who might want to use this format
[17:42]  Aphilo Aarde: Might Vanguage mutual funds be a successful open, for-profit enterprise?
[17:42]  GeneKoo Li: e.g. many law firms publish and teach classes, but they don't make money off that -- they do the classes to develop relationships, and then they charge for the relationships
[17:42]  Grace McDunnough: As do I
[17:42]  You: yes, certainly ad revenue is the biggest one we've seen.
[17:42]  GeneKoo Li: in a model in which you are sellin gads, you are essentially selling the relationship
[17:42]  You: what is vanguage?
[17:42]  Grace McDunnough: Ad revenue oftens depends on either mass or licensed content
[17:42]  GeneKoo Li: musicians who give away music and rely on concert tix sales also rely on the monetization of the relationship
[17:43]  You: The thing i don't like about the service model is that it seems that many musicians don't even make music that would be good in performance and they don't necessarily have lives that lend themselves to performance.
[17:43]  Aphilo Aarde: vanguard - typo- mutual funds.
[17:43]  GeoffMcG Xi: hmmm, can you flesh out what is meant by monetization of the relationship?
[17:43]  GeneKoo Li: fundamentally tho, there is still SOME basic IP assumptions going on with many of these open relationships
[17:43]  GeoffMcG Xi: is it different than "selling?"
[17:43]  kimseng Cao: one last question before i go get my morning coffee - when is the next lecture?
[17:43]  You: the next lecture happens tomorrow, and another on tuesday.
[17:43]  GeneKoo Li: For example, if anyone could take your music and claim it was theirs, it would be hard to build a relationship, which requires some amount of trust
[17:44]  You: they will be available online probably on monday night and tuesday night.
[17:44]  You: and also here in the library on berkman island!
[17:44]  kimseng Cao: thanks rebecca - what time tomorrow? it is 5.44 pm in my world
[17:44]  Aphilo Aarde: index mutual funds are a form of openness . . .
[17:44]  GeneKoo Li: "monetization of the relationship" = any means you can think of to make money off the fact that you've built a relationships
[17:44]  You: the tuesday lecture should be one of the best of the whole class!
[17:44]  GeneKoo Li: Aphilo, I thnk that is right to a degree
[17:44]  GeneKoo Li: So would you compare an index fund to, for example, the Linux operating system?
[17:45]  kimseng Cao: i will try to come for the lecture - could you tell me where the class time table is - i will try to figure out the time difference
[17:45]  GeoffMcG Xi: alright, gene. so not just selling, but theft, larceny, pprostitution, etc.
[17:45]  Aphilo Aarde: anyone can open an index mutual fund . . . yes with linux. . .
[17:45]  GeneKoo Li: Even tho anyone could have access to the basic "thing" (index, software), what you want is someone to provide you with theservice
[17:45]  You: the lectures don't happen in real-time for those who aren't in the law class.
[17:45]  Egon Spengler: kimseng, I think we're talking about two different things
[17:45]  You: you can watch them whenever it is convenient for you.
[17:45]  Egon Spengler: lecture = recorded lecture
[17:45]  You: just come to the class website or to the library area here to watch them!
[17:45]  Egon Spengler: you might mean inworld discussion?
[17:45]  kimseng Cao: oh is it open to the public
[17:46]  You: there will probably be another in-world discussion here next week, probably a week from this tuesday.
[17:46]  Ellie Brewster: for us, or for extension?
[17:46]  kimseng Cao: egon - yeah what about inworld discussion? any time fixed
[17:46]  You: the physical lectures aren't open to the public, but they are recorded and made available to the public on the web and in here.
[17:46]  Egon Spengler: inworld discussion = this type of chat
[17:46]  GeneKoo Li: Geoff, not sure what you mean with those other examples
[17:46]  Egon Spengler: I guess we should figure out some common definitions
[17:46]  You: for extension there will a meeting this thursday night and for at-large it will be the tuesday after this one.
[17:47]  Aphilo Aarde: what's the best way to generate focus specific inworld discussions?
[17:47]  kimseng Cao: rebecca so sorry to be such a bother. i am not a harvard student - can i access the lecture?
[17:47]  You: yes, you can!
[17:47]  GeneKoo Li: becca what is the best starting-point to get to understand the class? the blog?
[17:47]  kimseng Cao: thanks rebecca - how do I do that?
[17:47]  Ironman28 Tenjin: Rebecca is there a schedule of upcoming meetings?
[17:47]  You: go to http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/cyberone and click on the lecture video link on the navigation bar.
[17:47]  kimseng Cao: thanks a lot. sorry to distract you guys
[17:47]  GeoffMcG Xi: well, i'm trying to get a grasp on profit driven production across both open and non-open creative organizations.
[17:48]  You: there isn't a schedule of upcoming meetings for at-large participants, but we'll send out announcements on the email list.
[17:48]  Hart Zhao: is there an agenda for this discussion?
[17:48]  Ironman28 Tenjin: cool
[17:48]  You: Again, we'd like to encourage you to schedule your own meetings too.
[17:48]  GeneKoo Li: Hart, this is pretty much open discussion at this point
[17:48]  GeneKoo Li: we seem to be trying to nail down some of the core concepts of the class
[17:48]  You: If you want to schedule one, let us know when you're hosting it and we can advertise it on the email list for you.
[17:48]  kimseng Cao: bye all - you all have been too kind- I am off my morning cofee
[17:48]  Grace McDunnough: Is there an in world group fot the at large participants?
[17:48]  Aphilo Aarde: lots of hand dancing . . . :) = open discussion?
[17:48]  GeneKoo Li: For those of you who also like to pursue this asynchronously, we have many fora for that too, all linked from the URL becca gave
[17:49]  You: One thing you could do with your own meeting would be to pick a specific topic so that the discussion could be focused on a particular topic.
[17:49]  Aphilo Aarde: bye kimseng.. . .
[17:49]  Ironman28 Tenjin: that's a good idea
[17:49]  Hart Zhao: I am interested in the project part of the course, as well - what forum should we use to organise ourselves ? g
[17:49]  You: there is a group for at-large participants.
[17:49]  Hart Zhao: excellent
[17:49]  You: Ansible Berkman is administering it.
[17:49]  You: She can add you to it if you IM her.
[17:49]  Grace McDunnough: Thanks
[17:49]  You: I have to get going too.
[17:49]  Egon Spengler: Hart, the wiki is the best place to organize projects
[17:49]  GeneKoo Li: IM her and ask to be added to the group
[17:49]  GeneKoo Li: she will get the IM when she next logs in
[17:49]  You: I would be interested in having more in-depth discussions of some of the ideas that we've discussed tonight.
[17:50]  GeoffMcG Xi: me too. can i propose an informal meetin here on tuesday?
[17:50]  You: If someone organizes meetings on particular topics, I will certainly try to come!
[17:50]  Egon Spengler: if we do schedule another at-large meeting, we might want to come up w/ a few questions or topics
[17:50]  Ellie Brewster: Thats very generous of you, rebecca.
[17:50]  Aphilo Aarde: I would, as well, Becca . . . What e-mail lists can we use?
[17:50]  Egon Spengler: something in the wiki, to get everyone thinking about stuff beforehand
[17:50]  GeneKoo Li: Right, conversation might be more focused if you had specific ideas or questions when you arrive
[17:50]  Aphilo Aarde: Yes, thanks, Rebecca.
<pre>
[17:50]  You: Egon, when do you think the video from tuesday lecture will be available in-world and on the website?
[17:50]  Ellie Brewster: Yes, good idea.
[17:50]  You: do you know?
[17:51]  Egon Spengler: they are usually up within a few hours
[17:51]  You: because I think that would be a great lecture to discuss at an informal meeting.
[17:51]  Egon Spengler: about 6pm EST
[17:51]  You: maybe you could have a viewing party and a discussion on Tuesday night?
[17:51]  Egon Spengler: and no later than 24 hours (unless something catastrophic happens)
[17:51]  Hart Zhao: 6pm is much better as I am in London
[17:51]  GeneKoo Li: Whoever is organizing the meeting (and we encourage any of you to do it) can then figure out an agenda of sorts
[17:51]  You: Or on wednesday if the updates go well this week...
[17:51]  GeneKoo Li: A viewing part is a good moment to get ppl together
[17:51]  Egon Spengler: I think that would be cool
[17:51]  You: ok, I'm going to sign off.
[17:52]  Ironman28 Tenjin: thanks, Rebecca
[17:52]  GeneKoo Li: by becca :)
[17:52]  GeoffMcG Xi: thanks rebecca!
[17:52]  Grace McDunnough: Good night Rebecca, thanks.
[17:52]  Holly Suisei: thanks!
[17:52]  Ellie Brewster: Thanks
[17:52]  Egon Spengler: see you tomorrow, Becca
[17:52]  Hart Zhao: thanks
[17:52]  You: As always, feel free to email us at harvard.cyberone@gmail.com.
[17:52]  Aphilo Aarde: Bye, Rebecca. and thanks!
[17:52]  You: goodnight.
</pre>
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