Hal Plotkin Interview Notes - August 10, 2009: Difference between revisions

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''Conducted with [[User:EGraeff|Erhardt Graeff]] and [[UserWikiSysop|Carolina Rossini]] via telephone on August 10, 2009, '''concerning California's [[California#2009 Open Source Digital Textbook Initiative|2009 Free Digital Textbook Initiative]] and Obama's American Graduation Initiative'''''
''Conducted with [[User:EGraeff|Erhardt Graeff]] and [[User:WikiSysop|Carolina Rossini]] via telephone on August 10, 2009, '''concerning California's [[California#2009 Open Source Digital Textbook Initiative|2009 Free Digital Textbook Initiative]] and Obama's American Graduation Initiative'''''


== Interviewee ==
== Interviewee ==
'''[http://creativecommons.org/about/people*82 Ahrash Bissell]'''<br>
*'''[http://www.plotkin.com Hal Plotkin]'''
Executive Director, [http://learn.creativecommons.org/ ccLearn]<br>
**Senior Advisor, [http://www.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ous/index.html?src=oc Office of the Under Secretary, U.S. Department of Education]
Email: ahrash [at] creativecommons [dot] org
**Email: hplotkin [at] plotkin [dot] com


== Notes ==
== Notes ==
ccLearn is writing a grant proposal to fund a fellow to study the California's digital textbook efforts.
===Hal's Background w/ OER Movement===
*Approached OER as a journalist seeing large gaps in educational materials and cooperation
**In touch with Hal Abelson at MIT OCW and the early OER proponents at the Hewlett Foundation
**'We weren't taking advantage of tracking students' paths through available educational materials and thus relying on potentially inferior products' (paraphrased)
*Blogged about what he called “public domain learning materials” prior to OER movement
*Was introduced to Creative Commons when sitting at a coffee shop in Palo Alto talking about public domain learning materials while a woman helping Larry Lessig with his first grant application for CC was working at an adjacent table
**Wrote first published article about Creative Commons
*Instrumental in proposing legislation allowing state funding of community college OER projects in California (3 years before latest K-12 initiative)


=== ccLearn's Observations and Strategy ===
===History of Textbook Publishing Policy===
Ahrash contends that:
*Public Agencies were/are like arms of traditional publishing houses through the campaign donations and powerful lobbyists
*Gov. Schwarzenegger's argument over the cost of textbooks (budget problems/need "free" educational materials) is a poor one. This connects low-cost/free to open source content which has an inferior quality connotation.
*Cost as a central argument for OER adoption is partially Hal's fault
*It's important to distance the OER movement from this initiative because California's goals do not represent [http://opened.creativecommons.org/Overview the definition of OER that ccLearn espouses].
**When he first was writing on the topic, Cost was the only demonstrably true case for OER
**”We only later discovered all of the peer collaboration and quality of materials arguments for OER development” (paraphrased)
**”Facilitating student and faculty collaboration on these projects and other such benefits were not apparent 10 years ago” (paraphrased)


==== Need to better define what is and is not OER ====
===American Graduation Initiative===
*Help people understand the constitution of what we call a textbook
*Grants will be given to individual projects, ideally directly to educators passionate about OER, to develop free online course materials
**Analyze the traditional textbook to show what the underlying processes are that are simply combined and bound together to produce a "textbook"
**Process will be competitive
**Prior to the internet, all of these underlying processes had to be owned/controlled by a single individual and then could be distributed in a book format; essentially
**Resources would likely be housed at one or more community colleges and nothing will stop colleges from forming consortium to apply for these grants (like CCCOER)
*Essentially, a textbook is ''content + review + editing + publication in various media''
**There will be no requirement that states participate though some may
*'''Important''': We don't want to propagate/lock-in the old-world model of single publisher books--not good for the public understanding of OER; i.e. simply paying a good author to produce content and then require they release it with an open license
**For-profit companies are welcome to submit proposals to develop these as well
*Alternatively, breaking apart the underlying processes of a textbook allows for both non-profit and commercial organizations to take one or more aspects of the process and own it / create a market for it; this would allow component parts and materials to be funded.
*The process will involve a public comment period and regulation laid down to govern distribution of funds
*'''For example''': California can go through six steps of "the process" and another state can go through final 4 steps to tailor the educational material to that state's needs.
**Maintenance of any effort and mechanisms to provide for their ongoing improvement will be part of the evaluation process
*CC-BY licenses for the free online community college courses are planned as an explicit requirement
*Will require full compliance with the American Disabilities Act (ADA)
**”Regretably,” the OER movement has mostly ignored ADA and adoption has suffered as a result, with colleges wary of the string of high-profile suits regarding ADA and educational access (although Under Secretary of Education Martha Kanter's husband led a movement for ADA compliance at California community colleges)
**Goal of ADA compliance is not only for access but to make better materials that are “more permanently useful to students” (in the same way that closed captioning has made video searchable)
**If successful, AGI will be largest investment in accessible learning materials in the history of the world at $500 million for course generation


==== Long-term Strategy for ccLearn and OER ====
===QUESTION: Is empowerment of teachers a part of OER's role?===
*Working with only OER organizations is not sustainable for ccLearn's open education agenda; the cost argument makes traditional publishers look like antagonists
*”As a former collegiate governance official...” it's important to understand that learning materials are the responsibility of the individual educators in their classrooms
*'''Approach''': Make statements that no one would disagree with:
*To encourage OER adoption, we need to avoid anything that appears to be coercive to faculty
**We believe that all learners should have access to materials that are accurate and up-to-date
*”I found a lot of teachers are eager to adopt OER and push for school approval for the materials” (paraphrase)
**And if we are all in agreement here, what isn't happening to make these things happen?
*The question is: How do we ''support'' faculty that are interested in OER?
*Creative Commons has been in dialogue with companies that would traditionally be seen as antagonistic
**Faculty members have no one to go to if they want to request the ability to use OER (a disincentive), unlike the well documented and easy process of repairing the school's football field
*There is very clear opportunity for partnerships with hardware companies to offer readers
**Need to define: What steps are involved in seeking approval? Where can the funds come from? In general, what institutional resources are available to me?
**Foothill-De Anza Community College District was the first to address how to support faculty wanting to engage in OER with a '''formal policy'''
***STORY: we had a math professor who thanked community college board for supporting OER
***He said not only does it save students money and is more current than what is available on the market and relevant to peers in the field. But this also builds trust with the students. Students are recognizing that I have taken steps to find the best materials for the least cost for my students!
**No mandatory training for faculty, simply encourage those that want to use OER


'''Recommendation''': Don't shunt the cost issue but rather say that we don't have as many things to pay for training and resources, i.e. let's be more efficient and effective
===K-12 and the California Free Digital Textbook Initiative===
*Hopefully, as K-12 governance officials see Higher Education going in an OER direction they will be encouraged to follow suit
*Certain government procedures like adoption policies are impediments
*Gov. Schwarzenegger's leadership has been inconsistent on this issue
*California has not been coordinating with Creative Commons/ccLearn or other OER groups


=== Problems with the California Initiative ===
===Political Background of the California Initiative===
==== Language ====
*About three years ago Hal worked with then-Chancellor Kanter and Assemblymember Ira Ruskin to draft Bill 2261 on Free Online College Course Materials
Free and digital are the only words that are used in California's “Free digital resources” initiative
**Intention of the bill was to fund one or more OER production projects
*In the "bill" there is language regarding licensing requirements
**Original bill died in the democratic legislature
*Originally, all mentioning of free licensing was removed by publishers
**Shortly thereafter publisher associations made significant contributions to legislators
**Unsurprisingly, legislators became reluctant to invest money in OER
*Non-Monetary Reasons for the OER Funding Policy
**Establish policy framework that made open source EM equivalent to traditional textbooks
***Transferability of credits in school is based on required textbooks being used—OER was left out of this equation
****OER had no one to be approved as intersegmental learning materials
*Governor ended up putting forward a different bill which actually proposed a multi-year funding BAN on OER for community colleges in California—couldn't divert funds to OER projects
**Through negotiations, the ban was lowered to only two years with the allowance that community colleges could still develop and adopt OER with non-public funds
**Concessions on regulatory matters allowed for CCCOER to be funded by the Hewlett Foundation


==== Protectionism for Existing Textbooks ====
===QUESTION: How do you think publishers are reacting to government policies on this?===
A new bill related to the initiative may mandate that none of the educational materials may be sanctioned for the next two years so that publishers of existing textbooks can recoup expenses incurred while enduring the most recent rounds of California's textbook adoption process.
*QOOP and Barnes and Noble are moving forward on publishing public domain materials at low-cost
*There is an ”historical alliance of publishers who have benefited from traditional practices for whom this may appear to be more of a threat than an opportunity” (direct quote)
**"I think this is misreading the situation" (paraphrase)
**Some publishers look at this as “a public option for their field” similar to the health insurance issue
*Publishers that want to innovate will find a way to make this part of their offerings
*Whether preexisting publishing houses will adopt OER ideas or move in that direction is still an open question ([[#Historical Alliance of Publishers and Progressive Democrats|see e-mail comment]])


==== All 'Free Digital Textbooks' will be relegated to Supplementary Material status ====
== Follow-up ==
*The bill will not put the submitted texts through the full textbook adoption process.
*REQUEST POLICY FOR COMMUNITY COLLEGE
*Process: If a publisher submits something that meets all of California's standards (it needs to go through the year-long review process) then you receive a mandate that classrooms use the content. Otherwise, it is ''supplementary'' failing meet ALL criteria and instead going through a lightweight process that is put on a "recommended" list--this where all free digital resources will go.
*ASK FOR STATISTICS ON OER ADOPTION AT COMMUNITY COLLEGE
*What if you get a textbook approved that meets all criteria but doesn't get mandated? What discretion will they give to teachers to choose materials?
*'''Possibility''': California collects all monies oriented for education at state-level and then re-distributes for equal resources at all districts. All non-mandated curriculum/resources are often funded through grants and other individual funding mechanisms (fundraising).
*:Ahrash: wouldn't be surprised if this would allow for greater independence at schools.


===OER Submissions===
== Follow-up E-mail Links and Comments ==
We know that [[Commons-based Cases in EM#Cases|Connexions]] and [[Commons-based Cases in EM-K12#Domestic|CK-12]] have submitted materials for approval through the process set up by the bill; and they are likely to get their content improved.
In no particular order…please see:
* http://www.plotkin.com/blog-archives/2006/12/oped_in_san_jos.html
* http://www.plotkin.com/blog-archives/2007/03/news_flash_rusk_1.html
* http://www.plotkin.com/blog-archives/2006/03/sacramento_hear.html
* http://www.plotkin.com/blog-archives/2009/03/free_textbooks_1.html
* http://www.halplotkin.com/SFgate001.htm  (about distance learning in general but last sections may offer a way to drive home the point we are trying to make - what excuse do we have for not using all the tools at our disposal to increase education attainment levels?)
* http://www.halplotkin.com/SFGate056.htm
* http://fhdafiles.fhda.edu/downloads/homefhda/PlotkinKanterPDtestimony.pdf
* http://www.plotkin.com/blog-archives/2004/10/creating_public.html
* http://www.halplotkin.com/OpenLettertoFoothillDeAnzaFaculty.htm


*CK-12 (submitted 8 of their textbooks) -- follow up with Neeru Kosla
===Historical Alliance of Publishers and Progressive Democrats===
*Connexions (submitted only one?) -- follow up with Joel Thierstein
"One other thing I’d add on the legislative front, which is a historical perspective. Years (decades) ago there developed a strong alliance between textbook publishers and progressive democrats as the publishers battled issues such as attempts to ban certain books, to restrict the books that public libraries could purchase, to dictate content of certain textbooks in the sciences, etc. - all of which led to a tight alliance between textbook publishers, their lobbyists and the democratic party. This historic alliance is in many ways and in many places still in place and its effect on the outcome of legislative proposals to advance OER is uncertain."
 
===Recommended Contacts===
'''Hal Plotkin''', Special Assistant, Office of the Under Secretary, U.S. Department of Education
*Was involved with the initiative in California from the beginning, also Martha Kanter (Under Secretary for Education)
*Has been recently involved with the President Obama's American Graduation Initiative
 
'''Generally...'''
*Representatives at the Hewlett Foundation and other major funders of OER initiatives.
*Executives at CK-12, Connexions, and others who submitted materials


= Navigation =
= Navigation =

Latest revision as of 14:38, 13 August 2009

Conducted with Erhardt Graeff and Carolina Rossini via telephone on August 10, 2009, concerning California's 2009 Free Digital Textbook Initiative and Obama's American Graduation Initiative

Interviewee

Notes

Hal's Background w/ OER Movement

  • Approached OER as a journalist seeing large gaps in educational materials and cooperation
    • In touch with Hal Abelson at MIT OCW and the early OER proponents at the Hewlett Foundation
    • 'We weren't taking advantage of tracking students' paths through available educational materials and thus relying on potentially inferior products' (paraphrased)
  • Blogged about what he called “public domain learning materials” prior to OER movement
  • Was introduced to Creative Commons when sitting at a coffee shop in Palo Alto talking about public domain learning materials while a woman helping Larry Lessig with his first grant application for CC was working at an adjacent table
    • Wrote first published article about Creative Commons
  • Instrumental in proposing legislation allowing state funding of community college OER projects in California (3 years before latest K-12 initiative)

History of Textbook Publishing Policy

  • Public Agencies were/are like arms of traditional publishing houses through the campaign donations and powerful lobbyists
  • Cost as a central argument for OER adoption is partially Hal's fault
    • When he first was writing on the topic, Cost was the only demonstrably true case for OER
    • ”We only later discovered all of the peer collaboration and quality of materials arguments for OER development” (paraphrased)
    • ”Facilitating student and faculty collaboration on these projects and other such benefits were not apparent 10 years ago” (paraphrased)

American Graduation Initiative

  • Grants will be given to individual projects, ideally directly to educators passionate about OER, to develop free online course materials
    • Process will be competitive
    • Resources would likely be housed at one or more community colleges and nothing will stop colleges from forming consortium to apply for these grants (like CCCOER)
    • There will be no requirement that states participate though some may
    • For-profit companies are welcome to submit proposals to develop these as well
  • The process will involve a public comment period and regulation laid down to govern distribution of funds
    • Maintenance of any effort and mechanisms to provide for their ongoing improvement will be part of the evaluation process
  • CC-BY licenses for the free online community college courses are planned as an explicit requirement
  • Will require full compliance with the American Disabilities Act (ADA)
    • ”Regretably,” the OER movement has mostly ignored ADA and adoption has suffered as a result, with colleges wary of the string of high-profile suits regarding ADA and educational access (although Under Secretary of Education Martha Kanter's husband led a movement for ADA compliance at California community colleges)
    • Goal of ADA compliance is not only for access but to make better materials that are “more permanently useful to students” (in the same way that closed captioning has made video searchable)
    • If successful, AGI will be largest investment in accessible learning materials in the history of the world at $500 million for course generation

QUESTION: Is empowerment of teachers a part of OER's role?

  • ”As a former collegiate governance official...” it's important to understand that learning materials are the responsibility of the individual educators in their classrooms
  • To encourage OER adoption, we need to avoid anything that appears to be coercive to faculty
  • ”I found a lot of teachers are eager to adopt OER and push for school approval for the materials” (paraphrase)
  • The question is: How do we support faculty that are interested in OER?
    • Faculty members have no one to go to if they want to request the ability to use OER (a disincentive), unlike the well documented and easy process of repairing the school's football field
    • Need to define: What steps are involved in seeking approval? Where can the funds come from? In general, what institutional resources are available to me?
    • Foothill-De Anza Community College District was the first to address how to support faculty wanting to engage in OER with a formal policy
      • STORY: we had a math professor who thanked community college board for supporting OER
      • He said not only does it save students money and is more current than what is available on the market and relevant to peers in the field. But this also builds trust with the students. Students are recognizing that I have taken steps to find the best materials for the least cost for my students!
    • No mandatory training for faculty, simply encourage those that want to use OER

K-12 and the California Free Digital Textbook Initiative

  • Hopefully, as K-12 governance officials see Higher Education going in an OER direction they will be encouraged to follow suit
  • Certain government procedures like adoption policies are impediments
  • Gov. Schwarzenegger's leadership has been inconsistent on this issue
  • California has not been coordinating with Creative Commons/ccLearn or other OER groups

Political Background of the California Initiative

  • About three years ago Hal worked with then-Chancellor Kanter and Assemblymember Ira Ruskin to draft Bill 2261 on Free Online College Course Materials
    • Intention of the bill was to fund one or more OER production projects
    • Original bill died in the democratic legislature
    • Shortly thereafter publisher associations made significant contributions to legislators
    • Unsurprisingly, legislators became reluctant to invest money in OER
  • Non-Monetary Reasons for the OER Funding Policy
    • Establish policy framework that made open source EM equivalent to traditional textbooks
      • Transferability of credits in school is based on required textbooks being used—OER was left out of this equation
        • OER had no one to be approved as intersegmental learning materials
  • Governor ended up putting forward a different bill which actually proposed a multi-year funding BAN on OER for community colleges in California—couldn't divert funds to OER projects
    • Through negotiations, the ban was lowered to only two years with the allowance that community colleges could still develop and adopt OER with non-public funds
    • Concessions on regulatory matters allowed for CCCOER to be funded by the Hewlett Foundation

QUESTION: How do you think publishers are reacting to government policies on this?

  • QOOP and Barnes and Noble are moving forward on publishing public domain materials at low-cost
  • There is an ”historical alliance of publishers who have benefited from traditional practices for whom this may appear to be more of a threat than an opportunity” (direct quote)
    • "I think this is misreading the situation" (paraphrase)
    • Some publishers look at this as “a public option for their field” similar to the health insurance issue
  • Publishers that want to innovate will find a way to make this part of their offerings
  • Whether preexisting publishing houses will adopt OER ideas or move in that direction is still an open question (see e-mail comment)

Follow-up

  • REQUEST POLICY FOR COMMUNITY COLLEGE
  • ASK FOR STATISTICS ON OER ADOPTION AT COMMUNITY COLLEGE

Follow-up E-mail Links and Comments

In no particular order…please see:

Historical Alliance of Publishers and Progressive Democrats

"One other thing I’d add on the legislative front, which is a historical perspective. Years (decades) ago there developed a strong alliance between textbook publishers and progressive democrats as the publishers battled issues such as attempts to ban certain books, to restrict the books that public libraries could purchase, to dictate content of certain textbooks in the sciences, etc. - all of which led to a tight alliance between textbook publishers, their lobbyists and the democratic party. This historic alliance is in many ways and in many places still in place and its effect on the outcome of legislative proposals to advance OER is uncertain."

Navigation

Back to Contacts for EM
Back to Educational Materials

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