IRC Log
From Berkman@10
Times are Mountain Standard Time/Pacific Daylight Time
7Yjbso
[edit] 2008-05-15
2008-05-15 00:44:59 * sama (n=sama@88.147.37.67) has joined #berkman
2008-05-15 04:16:29 * wseltzer (n=wseltzer@pool-71-162-107-51.bstnma.east.verizon.net) has joined #berkman
2008-05-15 04:46:51 <wseltzer> goodell: the rss bot seems to have been kicked out of the twitter channel
2008-05-15 04:49:44 <goodell> wseltzer: It does. Not sure why, I will put it back.
2008-05-15 04:50:58 <goodell> It is back now.
2008-05-15 04:55:16 <wseltzer> excellent. just tracking down a new YouTube "authorized link" feature before heading Berkmanward
2008-05-15 04:57:28 <goodell> wseltzer: this? http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/05/14/2125229
2008-05-15 05:00:31 <wseltzer> goodell: yes, though I hadn't yet seen the slashdot article, thanks
2008-05-15 05:06:45 <goodell> Interesting.
2008-05-15 05:07:08 <wseltzer> seems like a better alternative to takedown
2008-05-15 05:07:38 <goodell> http://valleywag.com/390528/how-youtubes-sucking-up-to-modest-mouse-and-other-giants-of-media
2008-05-15 05:08:30 <wseltzer> that wasn't quite the headline I was planning to use :)
2008-05-15 05:09:31 <wseltzer> http://wendy.seltzer.org/blog/archives/2008/05/15/sony-bmg-sends-youtube-ads-instead-of-takedown.html
2008-05-15 05:10:06 <goodell> That article argues that, unlike takedown, this practice could be less obvious and still effective in granting IP owners a means of tracking views on unofficial versions. (Is that the primary issue here? The link that allows posting the video on third-party sites seems secondary...)
2008-05-15 05:12:43 <wseltzer> Given that copyright holders have the right to take down, I think tracking is less intrusive -- if done transparently
2008-05-15 05:13:47 <wseltzer> they're trying to get back some of what they'd have by serving it all from their own site
2008-05-15 05:13:54 <goodell> Are there instances in which videos are tagged this way but the copyright owner does not authorize the use of the content on the site?
2008-05-15 05:14:17 <goodell> Right -- seems that here they are upset that they have lost the tracking ability to the four winds.
2008-05-15 05:17:41 <wseltzer> Unfortunately, I don't see anything in the API representation of the video. I'll have to ask the YouTomb whether they've seen this
2008-05-15 05:21:13 <wseltzer> Heading to Ames now. See you there.
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2008-05-15 05:24:07 <maryhodder> hello? is the webcast going yet? are you guys starting?
2008-05-15 05:28:23 <goodell> Heading to Ames now.
2008-05-15 05:29:21 * goodell has changed the topic to: Berkman Chat | @BerkmanCenter twitter feed -> #berkman-t
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2008-05-15 06:17:22 <wseltzer> Morning Berkmanfolk and friends!
2008-05-15 06:17:57 <jessamyn> hi there.
2008-05-15 06:19:39 * docsearls (n=docsearl@140.247.240.170) has joined #berkman
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2008-05-15 06:21:00 <davidjoho> yikes! We need to announce this backchannel!
2008-05-15 06:21:51 * davidjoho has changed the topic to: Berkman@10 - the Backchannel
2008-05-15 06:22:11 <davidjoho> what's the tag for this event?
2008-05-15 06:22:26 * chrisc_ (n=chatzill@140.247.249.118) has joined #berkman
2008-05-15 06:22:33 <jessamyn> berkmanat10
2008-05-15 06:22:47 <jessamyn> http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/berkmanat10/Social_Tools
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2008-05-15 06:26:48 * EricaG_away is now known as EricaG
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2008-05-15 06:27:53 <EricaG> Hi everyone! If you're remote, tune in to the webcast - Dean Kagan is opening the conference now.
2008-05-15 06:28:00 <wseltzer> Berkman Center becoming a University-wide center
2008-05-15 06:29:14 * millet (n=chatzill@dhcp-0013973058-8b-29.client.fas.harvard.edu) has joined #berkman
2008-05-15 06:30:03 <EricaG> What's Charlie got on his shirt? A deviation from the trademark turtleneck?
2008-05-15 06:30:56 * millet is now known as chrismillet
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2008-05-15 06:31:11 <dsilverman> space: the final frontier
2008-05-15 06:32:43 <jessamyn> spinoffs: the expanding frontier
2008-05-15 06:35:28 * Sam1vp (n=Sam@128.103.182.167) has joined #berkman
2008-05-15 06:35:29 <davidjoho> if you believe in JZ, clap your hands
2008-05-15 06:35:46 <davidjoho> JZ! JZ! JZ! JZ!
2008-05-15 06:36:14 * cori[s] (n=cori@pdpc/supporter/active/CoriS) has joined #berkman
2008-05-15 06:37:32 * dsilverman claps, belatedly
2008-05-15 06:38:01 <jessamyn> I just hear "JayZ" and am quite amused.
2008-05-15 06:40:39 * msifry (n=msifry@dhcp-0013978859-39-0a.client.fas.harvard.edu) has joined #berkman
2008-05-15 06:40:48 <msifry> hello and good morning!
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2008-05-15 06:41:17 * dslater (n=dslater@dhcp-0013978809-23-a4.client.fas.harvard.edu) has joined #berkman
2008-05-15 06:41:33 <davidjoho> howdy, msifry!
2008-05-15 06:41:38 <Sam1vp> morning everyone!
2008-05-15 06:41:40 <wseltzer> welcome msifry, dslater, jessamyn
2008-05-15 06:41:55 <jordan___> hi joho and others
2008-05-15 06:41:58 <davidjoho> msifry, are you here (the way dslater and jessamyn are)?
2008-05-15 06:42:02 <msifry> i'm so glad to be here at the Barkmen Center's anniversary! Woof!
2008-05-15 06:42:05 <docsearls> Charlie: our Yoda.
2008-05-15 06:42:06 <msifry> in the flesh
2008-05-15 06:42:14 <wseltzer> Charlie Nesson: "Founder and guru"
2008-05-15 06:42:25 <wseltzer> complete with lightsaber noises!
2008-05-15 06:42:33 <docsearls> are we having our brains erased?
2008-05-15 06:42:55 <jessamyn> did he just say Fred Friendly? that's great!
2008-05-15 06:42:56 <davidjoho> ladies and gentlemen, the fuck barrier was broken at 9:40am
2008-05-15 06:42:56 <Sam1vp> sadly, I can only attend today via webcast--if anything happens off in the wings, please report!
2008-05-15 06:43:00 <dsilverman> oh geez
2008-05-15 06:43:12 <docsearls> Charlie: My mentor is Fred Friendly. His dictum was, "Technology is out to fuck you."
2008-05-15 06:43:34 <davidjoho> JZ: The most overqualified AV Squad member in history.
2008-05-15 06:43:37 * ahoward_ (n=chatzill@140.247.241.76) has joined #berkman
2008-05-15 06:43:41 <dsilverman> JZ! JZ!
2008-05-15 06:43:55 <jessamyn> that's the thing on his sweatshirt, question answered
2008-05-15 06:44:25 <dsilverman> who is the narrator?
2008-05-15 06:44:49 <davidjoho> Eon.
2008-05-15 06:44:53 <wseltzer> he claimed he needed no introduction!
2008-05-15 06:45:22 <EricaG> I still want to know what's on Charlie's shirt.
2008-05-15 06:45:37 <docsearls> I remember JZ first as the guy who ran the Sysops Forum on Compuserve. didn't put 2 and 2 (or SF and Z) together until reminded a few weeks ago.
2008-05-15 06:45:37 <alexleavitt> Dragon of the Internet.
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2008-05-15 06:47:30 <msifry> i feel like i'm at a wedding, where they forgot to do the rehearsal dinner
2008-05-15 06:48:20 <Chilmark> a little disconcerting that a grp talking about the Internet has trouble launching an app
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2008-05-15 06:48:45 <wseltzer> Terry: "I was suspicious of this fad"
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2008-05-15 06:48:50 <sc1olist> We mustn't forget this is academia...
2008-05-15 06:49:07 <sc1olist> Rule #2: The A/V will never work...
2008-05-15 06:49:24 <Chilmark> good rules
2008-05-15 06:49:30 * fonchik (n=chatzill@dhcp-0000117886-f7-0a.client.law.harvard.edu) has joined #berkman
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2008-05-15 06:51:31 <dsilverman> cogitate: to think hard; ponder; meditate: to cogitate about a problem.
2008-05-15 06:51:52 * joshuakauffman (n=chatzill@dhcp-0000099983-c4-9b.client.law.harvard.edu) has joined #berkman
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2008-05-15 06:53:11 <ahoward_> It's oddly comforting and reaffirming that AV issues persist into the present...the irony of it being here/now is inescapable but amusing
2008-05-15 06:53:25 * davewiner (n=davewine@dhcp-0013973115-ac-a2.client.fas.harvard.edu) has joined #berkman
2008-05-15 06:53:34 <davewiner> hello everybody
2008-05-15 06:53:47 <ThomasKriese> not much live tweeting (yet) over at http://twemes.com/berkman
2008-05-15 06:53:53 <davidjoho> what did lessig refer to it as? I heard "zebra," which I'm pretty sure is not what Terry said.
2008-05-15 06:54:19 <joshmahoney> hi dave
2008-05-15 06:54:28 <jessamyn> the dragon shirt is SL/RL http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/cyberone/2006/10/29/the-end-of-a-long-hiatus/ fwiw
2008-05-15 06:54:33 <EricaG> JZ: An avatar of Berkman
2008-05-15 06:54:34 <msifry> it's hard to teach old dogs new tricks, here at Barkmen
2008-05-15 06:54:35 <sc1olist> I think Kagan is under the impression she owns JZ...literally.
2008-05-15 06:54:47 <KevinMarks> stream running at 70% packet loss, no audio
2008-05-15 06:55:05 <dsilverman> eon, thank you
2008-05-15 06:55:15 <KevinMarks> whover set it up, twaek down the video bitrate setting
2008-05-15 06:56:18 <davewiner> Some. Professors. Speak. Slowly. And. Deliberately.
2008-05-15 06:57:09 <KevinMarks> I'm seeing 700 kbit/sec with 50% packet loss - sending out a 1.5mbit/sec stream is sadly assuming a bit too much about net capacity
2008-05-15 06:58:01 <wseltzer> davidjoho: "Z theory," I think
2008-05-15 06:58:04 <ahoward_> KevinMarks, Steve Garfield is streaming on Qik live from his N95 too: http://qik.com/video/78641
2008-05-15 06:58:29 <wseltzer> courgettes!
2008-05-15 06:58:56 <jessamyn> "let's build a global network" club
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2008-05-15 07:00:19 <jordan____> are those pickles?
2008-05-15 07:00:34 <sc1olist> Look like Zucchinis -- unpickled
2008-05-15 07:00:48 <TimHwang_> squash maybe?
2008-05-15 07:00:49 <dsilverman> perhaps when this session ends the webcast producer can setup a second, lower-bandwidth stream
2008-05-15 07:00:50 <wseltzer> and yellow squash
2008-05-15 07:00:51 <Chilmark> Zukes and summer squash
2008-05-15 07:00:55 * jwales (n=jwales@wikipedia/Jimbo-Wales) has joined #berkman
2008-05-15 07:00:55 <KevinMarks> I don't want qik, I like Qt H264 (I wrote that broadcaster code)
2008-05-15 07:00:58 <dsilverman> or audio-only
2008-05-15 07:01:19 <KevinMarks> just go down to around 400 kbit/sec, and 320x240 video
2008-05-15 07:01:24 <dsilverman> @KevinMarks then you know you can't lower bandwidth in QT Broadcaster without restarting the broadcast
2008-05-15 07:01:26 <sc1olist> Dude, KUH-TAR.
2008-05-15 07:01:27 <sc1olist> Oops
2008-05-15 07:01:29 <KevinMarks> yep
2008-05-15 07:01:32 <dsilverman> which would cut it off for 40 people in the overflow room
2008-05-15 07:01:33 <jessamyn> ku'tr
2008-05-15 07:01:38 <ilteris_> can someone hook me up with the streaming url please?
2008-05-15 07:01:45 <KevinMarks> but as it has 70% packet loss I can't see it now anyway
2008-05-15 07:01:54 <KevinMarks> http://harmony.law.harvard.edu/webcast.sdp
2008-05-15 07:02:09 <dsilverman> yeah, that's unfortunate, hopefuly can be remedied for next session. perhaps watch the qik for the time being?
2008-05-15 07:02:13 <ilteris_> oh wow stevegarfield qik streaming is pretty nice
2008-05-15 07:02:47 <wseltzer> JZ: the freedom of not needing to have a business plan
2008-05-15 07:05:33 <davewiner> Video: Jon Zittrrain explains the Internet. http://www.flickr.com/photos/scriptingnews/2494926130/
2008-05-15 07:06:01 <dsilverman> look at some of the "power" wireless technologies
2008-05-15 07:06:08 <dsilverman> they trample all available 802.11 channels
2008-05-15 07:06:13 <dsilverman> for better throughput for one person
2008-05-15 07:06:25 <dsilverman> or "turbo"
2008-05-15 07:08:40 <davewiner> the charter of the ietf is bs
2008-05-15 07:08:48 <davewiner> there are definitely insiders and outsiders
2008-05-15 07:09:10 <jordan____> his stories of near anarchy of the origins seems a little beyond truthiness
2008-05-15 07:09:43 <davewiner> why don't the academics ever burst myths
2008-05-15 07:09:58 <jordan____> smal groups took over and won by faster implementation and politics, i recall
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2008-05-15 07:10:20 <EricaG> Dave, isn't that the core problem with any consensus-based community? Unless it's very committed to self-reflection, there's the "tyrrany of structurelessness" < / social systems geek mode >
2008-05-15 07:10:22 <davewiner> and they reinvent the wheel whenever they feel like it, even when rough consensus already exists
2008-05-15 07:10:41 <davewiner> ericag, no they only respect technologists not users.
2008-05-15 07:11:06 <davewiner> if the users have already settled on something it's not uncommon for them to start over from scratch and completely ignore the consensus that already exists
2008-05-15 07:11:24 <davewiner> which has caused them to be routed around
2008-05-15 07:11:33 <davewiner> they may have been relevant once a long time ago
2008-05-15 07:11:39 <davewiner> but not so much anymore
2008-05-15 07:11:51 <davewiner> if you really want to get something done, go ahead and do it, don't wait for the ietf
2008-05-15 07:12:04 <fonchik> why is the video so dark? Steve Garfield's is much prettier
2008-05-15 07:12:19 <davewiner> fonchik cause steve garfield knows what he's doing :-)
2008-05-15 07:12:49 * wendy (n=chatzill@66-207-222-14.beanfield.net) has joined #berkman
2008-05-15 07:12:51 <davewiner> kazaa == hug amount of spyware
2008-05-15 07:13:03 <davidjoho> steve garfield is the official onsite documentarian of the conference, btw.
2008-05-15 07:13:26 * wendy is now known as redheadatwork
2008-05-15 07:13:34 <TimHwang_> if i remember, JZ'll actually talk about that later. the tainting of kazaa actually ends up fitting into his thesis
2008-05-15 07:14:19 <jessamyn> "other things" = porn, right?
2008-05-15 07:14:25 <jessamyn> re: wikipedia
2008-05-15 07:14:31 <jordan____> ha!
2008-05-15 07:14:55 <devoncopley> i've been to that restaurant!
2008-05-15 07:15:03 <devoncopley> it's mushrooms
2008-05-15 07:15:16 <TimHwang_> i actually prefer the schezwan wikipedia
2008-05-15 07:15:20 <devoncopley> South Silk Road, in the Houhai district of Beijing
2008-05-15 07:15:37 <wseltzer> everyone: don't twitter that!
2008-05-15 07:15:47 <jessamyn> ARRESTED - I wish there were more good twitter stories.
2008-05-15 07:16:25 <msifry> he's right that microblogging seems to be displacing attention from blogging
2008-05-15 07:16:45 <msifry> but in the world i inhabit, soundblasts are now competing with soundbites
2008-05-15 07:16:48 * joshmahoney (n=roostah@dhcp-0013978776-e4-be.client.fas.harvard.edu) has joined #berkman
2008-05-15 07:16:49 <jessamyn> protip: first, have a giant/powerful network
2008-05-15 07:16:51 * luisv (n=louie@dyn-160-39-43-175.dyn.columbia.edu) has joined #berkman
2008-05-15 07:17:08 * luisv waves hello at everyone, wishes he could be there
2008-05-15 07:17:12 <msifry> for ex, the average length of Obama's top ten viewed videos on YouTube is 13+ minutes
2008-05-15 07:17:28 <EricaG> I used Twitter as a doorbell a couple weeks ago - had lost my friend's # and her doorbell was broken. I DM'ed her
2008-05-15 07:17:42 <redheadatwork> I got my job via Twitter.
2008-05-15 07:18:09 * docsearls has quit ()
2008-05-15 07:18:10 <sc1olist> redhead: how?
2008-05-15 07:18:30 <redheadatwork> My now-boss tweeted that he was overwhelmed; I didn't have a job. I offered, he accepted.
2008-05-15 07:18:34 <goodell> I think that I have an idea why the rssbot was killed for Excess Flood earlier. :)
2008-05-15 07:18:36 <jordan____> rh@w: what kind of job (my daughter is looking)
2008-05-15 07:18:58 * dwitzel (i=user@dhcp-0013978928-4e-2a.client.fas.harvard.edu) has joined #berkman
2008-05-15 07:19:16 <wseltzer> too many tweets and grunts?
2008-05-15 07:19:20 <redheadatwork> I do events and such for a public policy consultant.
2008-05-15 07:20:00 * docsearls (n=docsearl@dhcp-0008751878-c7-f0.client.law.harvard.edu) has joined #berkman
2008-05-15 07:20:59 <alexleavitt> peek-a-boo is apparently the program that told zittrain what programs he was running, aka. the screenshot
2008-05-15 07:21:43 <samgilb> did anybody catch the source for "1/4 billion computers awaiting instructions"?
2008-05-15 07:21:48 <joshuakauffman> cerf
2008-05-15 07:22:00 <samgilb> thx
2008-05-15 07:22:09 * dsilverman (n=dsilverm@dhcp-0008355076-d1-17.client.fas.harvard.edu) has left #berkman
2008-05-15 07:22:11 <sc1olist> Man where can I get that Add DDOS util? That'd be useful. Ha.
2008-05-15 07:22:28 <jessamyn> this is one of my favorite internet bedtime stories - how pakistan killed youtube.
2008-05-15 07:22:58 <sc1olist> "Send it and pray". Is that Zittrain's line, or is that a common phrase?
2008-05-15 07:23:05 <davidjoho> dave clark
2008-05-15 07:23:11 <ahoward_> JessaMyn -- I like how the bedtime story ends: YouTube grows back. Many-headed hydra.
2008-05-15 07:23:17 * jlicht (n=jeffreyl@c-66-30-112-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) has joined #berkman
2008-05-15 07:23:29 <alexleavitt> cats flushing toilets. JZ win.
2008-05-15 07:23:38 <fonchik> Berkman's next publication: Internet Bedtime Stories
2008-05-15 07:23:52 <jessamyn> lizard tail youtube
2008-05-15 07:24:34 <fonchik> redhead: I got my job via SMS
2008-05-15 07:24:42 <redheadatwork> fonchik: sweet
2008-05-15 07:25:49 <jessamyn> let's see if every speaker says "salience" I think we're 3 for 3 now.
2008-05-15 07:25:52 <docsearls> From Richard Sambrook of the BBC:
2008-05-15 07:25:54 <docsearls> sambrook Icon_red_lock @berkmancenter tell JZ to check the reporting of China and Burma on twitter
2008-05-15 07:26:48 <fonchik> What technology are we using to pass messages to speakers live? 85point type on a laptop screen in the front row?
2008-05-15 07:27:27 <wseltzer> fonchick: question tool!
2008-05-15 07:27:35 <sc1olist> I'd use the Live ? Tool: http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/questions/Berkmanat10
2008-05-15 07:28:11 <TimHwang_> samgilb: you can grab it from his book http://futureoftheinternet.org/download, chap 3
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2008-05-15 07:29:14 <devoncopley> tragedy of the commons
2008-05-15 07:29:14 <davewiner> geez does he really believe no one is in charge of wikipedia?
2008-05-15 07:29:31 * Corinna_ (n=chatzill@c-76-24-18-117.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) has joined #berkman
2008-05-15 07:29:47 <goodell> cf. #wikipedia
2008-05-15 07:29:50 <sc1olist> No he doesn't, but he's simplifying for the purpose of explaining philosophy.
2008-05-15 07:30:11 <davewiner> i think there are people who believe it
2008-05-15 07:30:13 <davewiner> i've met them
2008-05-15 07:30:24 <davewiner> the internet is magic
2008-05-15 07:30:24 <goodell> It is important to note that Wikipedia does not quite achieve all of its goals, among them allowing anonymous contributions.
2008-05-15 07:30:41 <davewiner> human beings don't act human on the internet
2008-05-15 07:30:56 <davewiner> or there are "saint zones" where everyone is a saint
2008-05-15 07:31:00 <davidjoho> wikipedia would fit in the lower right: bottom-up hierarchy. And maybe it's trending up the chart.
2008-05-15 07:31:01 <goodell> For example, Wikipedia has blocked Tor nodes from committing changes, implicitly relying upon ISPs to enforce Wikipedia standards for reasonable behavior.
2008-05-15 07:31:19 <davidjoho> Dave, I take him as saying the opposite. "It works until it doesn't."
2008-05-15 07:31:43 <sc1olist> @david I think that's it.
2008-05-15 07:33:06 <davewiner> @davidjoho, you know we disagree on wkipedia
2008-05-15 07:33:14 * EricaG has changed the topic to: Berkman@10 - the Backchannel | Other Social Tools @ http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/berkmanat10/Social_Tools
2008-05-15 07:33:21 <davewiner> jz is very realistic about some things
2008-05-15 07:33:23 <davewiner> but for some reason
2008-05-15 07:33:35 <davewiner> doesn't want to say that the problems he's noticed apply to wikipedia
2008-05-15 07:33:44 <davewiner> why is that?
2008-05-15 07:33:59 <davidjoho> yes, dave, although maybe less (or perhaps more) than we think we do.
2008-05-15 07:34:15 <davewiner> ?
2008-05-15 07:34:49 <davidjoho> i'm not the total wikipedia utopian that i sometimes sound like.
2008-05-15 07:34:50 <davewiner> someone ought to do a realistic study of how wikipedia actually works
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2008-05-15 07:35:08 <davewiner> not the myth but the actual life of a wikipedia page
2008-05-15 07:35:22 <davewiner> and do a jz or joho style talk about it
2008-05-15 07:35:33 <davewiner> or a docsearls or larrylessig style talk
2008-05-15 07:35:36 <davidjoho> it would depend a lot on the page
2008-05-15 07:35:40 <davewiner> right
2008-05-15 07:35:46 <davewiner> you'd have to pick an "interesting" page
2008-05-15 07:35:52 <davewiner> some pages are very very good
2008-05-15 07:36:15 <davidjoho> one could pick some truly hair-raising examples, which is something you and i agree about.
2008-05-15 07:36:19 <davewiner> like I just looked up the page for bloggercon and while I don't think they got it totally accurate it is literate and undestandably mistaken where it is mistaken
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2008-05-15 07:36:49 <davidjoho> an article on the lives of wikipedia pages could be _very_ interesting
2008-05-15 07:36:52 <davewiner> david, it's not just examples, it's whole areas of human knowledge that are getting fucked by wikipedia
2008-05-15 07:37:03 <davewiner> not something to be trifiled with, imho
2008-05-15 07:37:25 <fonchik> Davewiner: defined "fucked" in this context
2008-05-15 07:37:53 <davewiner> you can't define things on IRC
2008-05-15 07:37:55 <davewiner> too informal
2008-05-15 07:38:01 <davewiner> too low bandwidth
2008-05-15 07:38:02 <davewiner> sorry
2008-05-15 07:38:05 <fonchik> touche
2008-05-15 07:38:48 <davewiner> i'm like alan kaye on this -- wikipedia is definitely worth criticizing
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2008-05-15 07:38:54 <davewiner> if it wasn't I wouldn't
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2008-05-15 07:40:37 <davidjoho> :)
2008-05-15 07:41:21 <alexleavitt> "something as gorgeous as this, the iPhone"... and ZR becomes Steve Jobs
2008-05-15 07:42:04 <ilteris_> lol
2008-05-15 07:43:10 <davewiner> i knew the pope used a mac
2008-05-15 07:43:25 <alexleavitt> white hair, white computer
2008-05-15 07:43:43 <fonchik> Don't knock it those product placements keep Berkman in pens
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2008-05-15 07:45:25 <jessamyn> and us all in playing cards.
2008-05-15 07:45:30 <wseltzer> "every photo of Steve Jobs is blurry"
2008-05-15 07:46:49 <KevinMarks> is the Zittrain the counterpoint to the Cluetrain?
2008-05-15 07:47:10 <wseltzer> won't anyone join me in applauding spam's possibility?
2008-05-15 07:47:30 <ahoward_> there's no real spam on Facebook? Hello, bacn? Application spam?
2008-05-15 07:47:44 <davewiner> now jz is being helpful
2008-05-15 07:47:49 <davewiner> lawyers run amok
2008-05-15 07:47:49 <devoncopley> you have to opt in to app spam on facebook
2008-05-15 07:47:52 <jordan____> did he just call us "the nerds?"
2008-05-15 07:47:53 <devoncopley> it's your own damn fault
2008-05-15 07:47:57 <KevinMarks> no you don't
2008-05-15 07:48:05 <KevinMarks> your freends send you it
2008-05-15 07:48:17 <joshuakauffman> friends are the new spam
2008-05-15 07:48:20 <devoncopley> with friends like that, who needs spam
2008-05-15 07:48:24 <ahoward_> it's my fault for being on Facebook, maybe.
2008-05-15 07:48:31 <TimHwang_> with spam like that, who needs friends
2008-05-15 07:48:45 <jessamyn> frenz
2008-05-15 07:48:57 <fonchik> I cannot wait for Facebook to be over
2008-05-15 07:49:19 <KevinMarks> I recommend orkut, you can see how everyone looked 4 years ago...
2008-05-15 07:49:47 <jessamyn> if you read portuguese
2008-05-15 07:49:57 <sc1olist> Yeah, exactly...ha.
2008-05-15 07:50:07 <davidjoho> i feel better about myself when i jaywalk.
2008-05-15 07:50:09 <ahoward_> @KevinMarks I log onto Friendster to see what 2002 looks like
2008-05-15 07:50:16 <davidjoho> I am such a rebel
2008-05-15 07:50:21 <jordan____> the question tool needs a character counter. can anyone hack the javascript.
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2008-05-15 07:50:41 <sc1olist> I telnet into my MUD to remind myself what a loser I was in 1998.
2008-05-15 07:50:46 <devoncopley> skeptical. they're doing that experiment in the whole country of vietnam. not working
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2008-05-15 07:51:00 <fonchik> Jordan: Hal Roberts could - Hal are you on?
2008-05-15 07:51:14 <davewiner> just posted a link to an article asking about mccain's health and people are complaining that i've resorted to republican tactics. amazing.
2008-05-15 07:51:20 <jordan____> It took too long to cut my question down to 255, that JZ addressed it before it got posted
2008-05-15 07:51:42 <luisv> just write it in your twitter tool first ;)
2008-05-15 07:52:57 <EricaG> Hal's down here in the overflow room
2008-05-15 07:53:13 <guan> can't we get the video feed in HD?
2008-05-15 07:53:27 <luisv> there is a video feed?
2008-05-15 07:53:29 <EricaG> i'm never going to live down that one shout-out
2008-05-15 07:53:39 <TimHwang_> yeah Erica!
2008-05-15 07:53:40 <guan> luisv: here in the overflow room
2008-05-15 07:53:55 <EricaG> Luis the webcast is linked from the social tools page
2008-05-15 07:54:05 <wseltzer> those who don't like governance are doomed to reinvent it, badly
2008-05-15 07:54:10 <guan> luisv: my shitty eyes can barely see anything, and he's poorly lit
2008-05-15 07:54:14 <EricaG> http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/berkmanat10/Social_Tools
2008-05-15 07:54:54 <wseltzer> wow, that robots.txt is crufty
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2008-05-15 07:55:16 <wseltzer> we haven't run htdig in eons
2008-05-15 07:55:32 <davidjoho> olan mills?
2008-05-15 07:56:05 <guan> wseltzer: wget used to have a bug in the robots.txt parser that ignored lines ending in a space; hugely awkward for me
2008-05-15 07:56:07 <davewiner> most people are honorable
2008-05-15 07:56:17 <davewiner> the world wouldn't work if it weren't so
2008-05-15 07:56:22 <luisv> wseltzer: I think we were actually running htdig (or trying to) as recently as '06
2008-05-15 07:56:41 <ahoward_> Olan mills: http://listoftheday.blogspot.com/2007/09/great-olan-mills-photos.html
2008-05-15 07:57:13 <wseltzer> luisv: when did it last work :)
2008-05-15 07:57:28 <davidjoho> so , what's olan mills?
2008-05-15 07:57:36 <jessamyn> "this is about ethics" that's a example where it works, but man there's so many where it doesn't
2008-05-15 07:57:59 <jessamyn> Olan Mills, like Sears photo studio.
2008-05-15 07:58:03 <luisv> wseltzer: before '06 ;)
2008-05-15 07:58:13 <davidjoho> thx
2008-05-15 07:58:47 <guan> davewiner would twitter it
2008-05-15 07:58:57 <dwitzel> but he
2008-05-15 07:59:05 <dwitzel> 'd block you from seeing it
2008-05-15 07:59:38 <davewiner> wow that's disrespectful guan
2008-05-15 08:00:04 <guan> davewiner: sorry, i tried to be humorous
2008-05-15 08:00:22 <guan> davewiner: didn't quite hear what you said in here
2008-05-15 08:00:44 <ilteris_> me either. I wish the stream was better too.
2008-05-15 08:00:49 <davewiner> i would not have twittered it -- and I just asked for clarification didn't say anything
2008-05-15 08:01:03 <joshmahoney> wait, didn't JZ start late?
2008-05-15 08:01:34 <wseltzer> Questions on the screen: http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/questions/Berkmanat10
2008-05-15 08:01:59 <sc1olist> Yes, he did. Kind of unfair, actually.
2008-05-15 08:03:15 <wseltzer> Bradner: "Jonathan does hyperbole quite well"
2008-05-15 08:03:16 <msifry> who is this?
2008-05-15 08:03:33 <jessamyn> http://www.sobco.com/sob/sob.html
2008-05-15 08:03:38 <wseltzer> Scott Bradner speaking
2008-05-15 08:03:46 <joshmahoney> iPhone haz evil?! Oh n0z!
2008-05-15 08:03:53 <TimHwang_> JZ: "I'm ur your internet, predicting ur problemz."
2008-05-15 08:05:03 <EricaG> (re time: we have to stay on time cos the post-lunch panel needs to start on time, due to panelist travel schedules)
2008-05-15 08:05:55 <joshmahoney> fair enough EricaG - but JZ shouldn't apologize for going "late".. vice versa.
2008-05-15 08:05:58 <wseltzer> Bradner: the Internet fails to fail often enough that new fixes are needed
2008-05-15 08:06:28 <jessamyn> well JZ said 4.5 minutes....
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2008-05-15 08:07:27 <joshmahoney> his session started a good 20 mins late
2008-05-15 08:07:36 <EricaG> Micha, Scott Bradner is one of the long-time IETF engineers, head of network security @ Harvard, longtime Berkman affiliate
2008-05-15 08:07:40 <davidjoho> if they don't take a question from the Question Tool, people will give up on it.
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2008-05-15 08:07:59 <sc1olist> True, true. Though the ?s there aren't very good on there.
2008-05-15 08:08:13 <sc1olist> David Reed, or Rhee?
2008-05-15 08:08:16 <davidjoho> reed
2008-05-15 08:08:25 <sc1olist> Gracias.
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2008-05-15 08:08:27 <davidjoho> "end-to-end" argument reed
2008-05-15 08:08:32 <jwales> http://www.media.mit.edu/people/bio_dpreed.html
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2008-05-15 08:10:02 <jwales> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reed%27s_law
2008-05-15 08:10:08 <fonchik> What's the opposite of "end-to-end"?
2008-05-15 08:10:30 <dsilverman> end to middle?
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2008-05-15 08:11:07 <ahoward_> ouroboros model? there is no end?
2008-05-15 08:11:15 <davidjoho> centralized
2008-05-15 08:11:20 <TimHwang_> "managed packet care"?
2008-05-15 08:11:22 <jessamyn> revolutionary fervor! tweedy revolutionary fervor!
2008-05-15 08:11:25 <jordan____> joho: go again and vote mine up. In fact the bot problem is a direct result of a closed platform.
2008-05-15 08:11:50 <jordan____> we can use the irc to control the question tool...
2008-05-15 08:12:28 <davidjoho> good question, jordan____________________________________
2008-05-15 08:12:42 <devoncopley> yup i'll freep it
2008-05-15 08:12:49 <EricaG> in an irc-mob vs twitter-mob, which would win?
2008-05-15 08:12:50 <wseltzer> Fisher: Are you a Federalist or an Anti-Federalist?
2008-05-15 08:12:52 <devoncopley> :)
2008-05-15 08:13:23 <davidjoho> I also like aaron's question: Does the future of the internet use institutions?
2008-05-15 08:13:54 <jessamyn> re: federalist "it depends"
2008-05-15 08:15:19 <wseltzer> Who's got a favorite question from the tool?
2008-05-15 08:15:46 <msifry> I just voted for doc's
2008-05-15 08:15:48 <jordan____> thanks. up to 10!
2008-05-15 08:16:02 <davidjoho> Personally, i sort of like mine about what has to change to get the social mechanisms to work, since they're not working now
2008-05-15 08:16:21 <davidjoho> because i'm not sure what jz would hae us do
2008-05-15 08:16:25 <davidjoho> hae=have
2008-05-15 08:16:41 <sc1olist> I think it's in the book.
2008-05-15 08:16:43 <sc1olist> He iddn't get to it.
2008-05-15 08:16:44 <wseltzer> I'll try to ask that and Aaron's re: institutions
2008-05-15 08:16:46 <joshmahoney> agreed davidjoho - i voted for yours
2008-05-15 08:16:59 <sc1olist> Yeah, I'd like to see that asked.
2008-05-15 08:17:00 <alexleavitt> Although Web 3.0 was introduced in the question tool, are we ready to define what Web 3.0 will be?
2008-05-15 08:17:08 <samgilb> as would I
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2008-05-15 08:17:44 <TimHwang_> agreed
2008-05-15 08:17:45 <joshmahoney> Question Tool = FAIL
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2008-05-15 08:18:29 <samgilb> thanks all, good discussion
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2008-05-15 08:20:13 <wseltzer> alas, too late to catch their attention
2008-05-15 08:20:17 <wseltzer> break now
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2008-05-15 08:41:32 <wseltzer> starting up; going to 1
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2008-05-15 08:42:13 <davewiner> sorry to be missing JP's talk
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2008-05-15 08:43:18 <ilteris__> when are we starting back again?
2008-05-15 08:43:33 <davidjoho> http://publius.cc
2008-05-15 08:43:59 <wseltzer> now-1, back at 2
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2008-05-15 08:47:11 <EricaG_> Has it started back up yet upstairs?
2008-05-15 08:47:16 <ahoward_> @davewiner It should be recorded and archived... but JP is on now
2008-05-15 08:47:19 <ahoward_> about the Publius projec
2008-05-15 08:47:37 <guan> screen is dark down here
2008-05-15 08:47:37 <ahoward_> http://publius.cc/
2008-05-15 08:47:53 <dwitzel> is it on upstairs?
2008-05-15 08:47:56 <davewiner> I'm really happy JP got the new job. It's a great place to spend the next few years. Libraries are where it's happening.
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2008-05-15 08:48:16 <sc1olist> welcome back everyone
2008-05-15 08:48:33 <guan> we have sound, no video
2008-05-15 08:48:38 <EricaG_> is the webcast working for remote people, or just not working for us in the overflow room?
2008-05-15 08:48:41 <sc1olist> aw christ again?
2008-05-15 08:48:52 <sc1olist> I had someone report that the last one needed better keyframing but was working alright...
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2008-05-15 08:49:01 <EricaG_> we're listening to the sound via Persephone's ;laptop & the desk microphone
2008-05-15 08:49:11 <sc1olist> Are the video folks on the IRC?
2008-05-15 08:50:03 <msifry> and we're back
2008-05-15 08:50:23 <msifry> but i'm trying to take live blog notes for a post on this session, so snarking will be light
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2008-05-15 08:51:21 <jessamyn> let us all endeavor to fill the snark vacuum
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2008-05-15 08:52:15 <wseltzer> ethanz: we've gone from international news being a supply problem to a demand problem
2008-05-15 08:53:13 <fonchik> great eyepatch - too bad he didn't bring the parrot
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2008-05-15 08:54:05 <jessamyn> here's the "what's up with the eyepatch" post http://www.ethanzuckerman.com/blog/2008/05/10/reality-by-rothko/
2008-05-15 08:55:40 <jordan_p> ohh, did JP say that YesWeCan people are here??
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2008-05-15 08:55:53 <wseltzer> jordan_p, yes they are
2008-05-15 08:55:59 <wseltzer> or should that be YesTheyAre :)
2008-05-15 08:56:31 <fonchik> both Wes and Jesse are here, I registered them.
2008-05-15 08:56:55 * EricaG has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
2008-05-15 08:56:57 <jordan_p> I need a 2 second clip of the Israeli Actress for http://jewsforobama.com
2008-05-15 08:57:01 * OFF-meister (n=bway@c-98-198-183-215.hsd1.tx.comcast.net) has joined #berkman
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2008-05-15 08:57:11 <jordan_p> wendy, can u introduce me?
2008-05-15 08:57:37 <EricaG_> we just lost sound again
2008-05-15 08:57:40 <EricaG_> on the webcast
2008-05-15 08:58:02 <guan> can anyone here read lips?
2008-05-15 08:58:28 <wseltzer> John Kelly describing his map of the Farsi blogosphere
2008-05-15 08:58:31 <fonchik> DAvid W can you live IRC
2008-05-15 08:58:34 <OFF-meister> strange, just about that time safari crashed
2008-05-15 08:58:51 <ilteris__> yep
2008-05-15 08:58:54 <wseltzer> Every dot represents a blog, positioning=relationships
2008-05-15 08:58:54 <ilteris__> sound is gone
2008-05-15 08:59:01 <davidjoho> can I live IRC? I'm doing my best, but every now and then I need to eat something.
2008-05-15 08:59:04 * OFF-meister is now known as bway
2008-05-15 08:59:08 <davidjoho> i.e., i don't understand your question, fonchick
2008-05-15 08:59:09 * maryhodder (n=hodder@207.47.11.2.static.nextweb.net) has joined #berkman
2008-05-15 08:59:18 <EricaG_> we lost sound downstairs
2008-05-15 08:59:20 <wseltzer> links = "attentive gravity"
2008-05-15 08:59:28 <EricaG_> can anyone summarize for us til we get sound back
2008-05-15 08:59:30 <msifry> anyone know where we can find that image online?
2008-05-15 08:59:33 <wseltzer> color indicates their subject
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2008-05-15 08:59:40 <wseltzer> EricaG, that's what I'm trying to do
2008-05-15 08:59:40 <sc1olist> they cluster by linking histories
2008-05-15 08:59:56 <wseltzer> EricaG, do you have video?
2008-05-15 09:00:03 <EricaG_> we do have video
2008-05-15 09:00:04 <sc1olist> Size = # of inbound links
2008-05-15 09:00:05 <davidjoho> http://datamining.typepad.com/data_mining/images/2008/04/09/iranblogosphere.png
2008-05-15 09:00:06 <jessamyn> http://datamining.typepad.com/data_mining/images/2008/04/09/iranblogosphere.png
2008-05-15 09:00:15 <wseltzer> graph: what are the groups in society, how are they formed, what are they interested in
2008-05-15 09:00:22 <sc1olist> (going through the various typologies)
2008-05-15 09:00:26 <wseltzer> poetry, surprisingly large
2008-05-15 09:00:26 <msifry> http://blogs.reuters.com/reuters-editors/files/2008/04/picture-7.png
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2008-05-15 09:00:41 <fonchik> can someone tell Steve Garfield to turn his thing on ??
2008-05-15 09:00:50 <joshuakauffman> twelvers: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers
2008-05-15 09:00:50 <wseltzer> 3 distinct subgroups of conservative, religious bloggers, but that's only a small part of the sphere
2008-05-15 09:00:54 <sc1olist> It's picking up in the room speakesr
2008-05-15 09:01:25 * Corinna_ (n=chatzill@c-76-24-18-117.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) has joined #berkman
2008-05-15 09:01:40 <sc1olist> ((Here you can see how this public network dialogue is forming))
2008-05-15 09:02:01 <fonchik> corinna! How are you?
2008-05-15 09:02:02 <sc1olist> ((What you see is a picture of a population that is much clearer than the cartoon visions we get in the media))
2008-05-15 09:02:06 * Corinna_ has quit (Remote closed the connection)
2008-05-15 09:02:12 <wseltzer> Qs: where's ahmedinejad's blog -- big pink dot
2008-05-15 09:02:14 * KevinMarks has quit ("The computer fell asleep")
2008-05-15 09:02:31 <wseltzer> what's it say?: who's paying attention to them
2008-05-15 09:02:49 <EricaG_> now our picture is also frozen
2008-05-15 09:02:57 <ilteris__> same here :(
2008-05-15 09:03:06 <wseltzer> the picture hasn't changed
2008-05-15 09:03:09 <wseltzer> still the graph
2008-05-15 09:03:11 <fonchik> where is Steve Garfield? We need him to livecast
2008-05-15 09:03:12 <bway> getting a 404 on the feed
2008-05-15 09:03:14 <jessamyn> post about the image: http://datamining.typepad.com/data_mining/2008/04/map-of-iranian.html
2008-05-15 09:03:18 <guan> http://www.ahmadinejad.ir/
2008-05-15 09:03:24 <sc1olist> Question from the audience: Ellen Hume @ MIT
2008-05-15 09:03:31 <wseltzer> Ellen Hume, cfcm MIT, asks for map of voters 2008
2008-05-15 09:03:38 <jessamyn> Democratic voters
2008-05-15 09:03:39 <sc1olist> "Have you done this for voters in 2008?"
2008-05-15 09:04:01 <wseltzer> JP: give us the scoop
2008-05-15 09:04:08 * jordan_p_ (n=chatzill@dhcp-0013978820-b2-f2.client.fas.harvard.edu) has joined #berkman
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2008-05-15 09:04:29 <wseltzer> JK: liberal and conservative are largest clusters, distinct subgroups
2008-05-15 09:04:35 * jordan_p_ is now known as jordan_p
2008-05-15 09:05:09 <wseltzer> JK: interesting groups that straddle the divide, biggest is law
2008-05-15 09:05:23 <guan> eerily quiet down here. somebody say something.
2008-05-15 09:05:28 <EricaG_> how crowded is it in ames
2008-05-15 09:05:35 <sc1olist> Palfrey: Sessions can be created tomorow to self-organize
2008-05-15 09:05:35 <wseltzer> tomorrow, make-your-own sessions
2008-05-15 09:05:36 <EricaG_> can we send folks from the overflow up there
2008-05-15 09:05:51 <wseltzer> EricaG: sure, not too many seats, but welcome
2008-05-15 09:05:52 <EricaG_> we still got nothing
2008-05-15 09:06:19 <EricaG_> ok, some folks may go up
2008-05-15 09:06:20 * ilteris__ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
2008-05-15 09:06:49 <EricaG_> oooh now we have sound
2008-05-15 09:06:54 <EricaG_> *crosses fingers*
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2008-05-15 09:07:23 <wseltzer> ok, so who brought the Faraday cage, then?
2008-05-15 09:07:48 <fonchik> We have audio and video again YAY
2008-05-15 09:07:55 * ilteris_ (n=ilteris@216.223.194.250) has joined #berkman
2008-05-15 09:07:55 <wseltzer> is anyone using question tool this session? http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/questions/list.php
2008-05-15 09:08:06 <sc1olist> I EMP'd the room. Sorry guys.
2008-05-15 09:08:17 <sc1olist> Oh, no, I think they were only using that for the Zittrain talk (insofar as it was actually ignored)
2008-05-15 09:08:28 * maryhodder (n=hodder@207.47.11.2.static.nextweb.net) has joined #berkman
2008-05-15 09:08:40 <wseltzer> sorry, tried to get it into the conversation, but time pressed against
2008-05-15 09:08:55 <ilteris_> is there a low-bitrate of the stream somewhere?
2008-05-15 09:09:14 <jessamyn> question about Cass Sunstein's hypotheis
2008-05-15 09:10:05 <sc1olist> @Wseltzer: understandable.
2008-05-15 09:10:13 * davewiner has quit ()
2008-05-15 09:10:36 <EricaG_> We can use the question tool for this session too - it's for the wholke conference
2008-05-15 09:11:04 <EricaG_> doesn't necessarily mean that all QT questions will make it into live discussion - also have to take qs from folks not on laptops
2008-05-15 09:11:09 <ilteris_> is it really true that two different wings are reading each others blogs?
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2008-05-15 09:11:43 <jessamyn> also the QT questions stay up from speaker to speaker which diminishes its usefulness somewhat, no?
2008-05-15 09:11:51 <ilteris_> I remember reading otherwise in Nicholas Carr's book. People are becoming more fragmented
2008-05-15 09:12:37 * maryhodder has quit (Client Quit)
2008-05-15 09:13:08 <guan> map of where political speech is blocked on net
2008-05-15 09:14:20 * sama has quit (Connection timed out)
2008-05-15 09:14:32 <davidjoho> can we clear the question tool of the jz questions?
2008-05-15 09:15:16 <joshuakauffman> Rob Feris, Open Net Initiative: "dictator's dilemma" - do we let the conversation play out, or do we close it down?
2008-05-15 09:15:16 <fonchik> Daivdjoho: I will ask Hal to do that.
2008-05-15 09:15:40 <wseltzer> thanks fonchik
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2008-05-15 09:16:25 <jessamyn> thanks
2008-05-15 09:17:01 <fonchik> JZ is working on it, there was a request to preserve it so as not to lose the questions, but we're working something out
2008-05-15 09:17:13 <jessamyn> is anyone else having a really hard time hearing this guy?
2008-05-15 09:17:29 <guan> they're also blocking poetry blogs that are a bit erotic
2008-05-15 09:18:08 <fonchik> This guy is Rob Faris, btw
2008-05-15 09:18:50 <fonchik> http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/people/rfaris
2008-05-15 09:19:07 <jessamyn> super, thanks.
2008-05-15 09:19:38 <davidjoho> is the tool down at the moment? (and thanks, fonchik)
2008-05-15 09:20:06 <fonchik> Phillip Hallam-Baker, VeriSign Inc. speaking
2008-05-15 09:20:24 <guan> "the fact that it is censored gives it legitimacy"
2008-05-15 09:20:29 <wseltzer> Qtool now cleared (thanks all!) http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/questions/list.php
2008-05-15 09:20:47 <fonchik> Bravo Zittrain!
2008-05-15 09:20:59 <davidjoho> i'm having trouble posting to the question tool
2008-05-15 09:21:25 <fonchik> what is your question?
2008-05-15 09:21:28 <jessamyn> "let's have a flash drive version of TOR if you really want to undermine dictators..."
2008-05-15 09:21:29 * redheadatwork has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
2008-05-15 09:21:33 <sc1olist> Flashdrive version of TOR? Sweet.
2008-05-15 09:21:34 <wseltzer> PHB is asking for Portable Tor
2008-05-15 09:21:41 <EricaG_> isn't torpark doing that?
2008-05-15 09:21:48 <ahoward_> flashdrive democracy
2008-05-15 09:21:48 <sc1olist> Josh Kaufman?
2008-05-15 09:21:48 <jordan_p> what is TOR
2008-05-15 09:22:00 <wseltzer> http://portabletor.sourceforge.net/
2008-05-15 09:22:00 <sc1olist> http://www.torproject.org/
2008-05-15 09:22:00 <davidjoho> the onion router
2008-05-15 09:22:10 <davidjoho> anonymizing router
2008-05-15 09:22:11 <guan> @jordan_p: network/software for anonymous internet use
2008-05-15 09:22:19 <wseltzer> Tor is the Onion Router network anonymizing technology
2008-05-15 09:22:21 <jordan_p> ok, got it.
2008-05-15 09:22:22 <jessamyn> http://www.joshuakauffman.org/
2008-05-15 09:22:25 <jessamyn> speaking now
2008-05-15 09:22:32 <wseltzer> Portable Tor is the USB flashdrive version
2008-05-15 09:22:50 <jessamyn> see also: http://en.oreilly.com/et2008/public/schedule/detail/1615
2008-05-15 09:23:04 <fonchik> Seems to work (Question Tool) did you refresh?
2008-05-15 09:23:08 <davidjoho> still unable to post at question tool
2008-05-15 09:23:11 <ThomasKriese> http://craphound.com/etech08_Swarm_Storm_Cuba.txt
2008-05-15 09:23:22 <davidjoho> yes, i've refreshed. i've also posted my stupid question about 8 times.
2008-05-15 09:23:25 <davidjoho> maybe the stupid filter is on
2008-05-15 09:23:34 * edmanm_ (i=edmanm@pasiphae.cs.rpi.edu) has joined #berkman
2008-05-15 09:23:37 <wseltzer> Davidjoho, you must be being censored
2008-05-15 09:23:56 <fonchik> Oh, yeah, I asked JZ to keep the riff raff out
2008-05-15 09:23:56 * dr|z3d (i=dr|z3d@gateway/tor/x-98eefc1b2b147ca1) has joined #berkman
2008-05-15 09:24:06 <sc1olist> Better use amiblocked.com
2008-05-15 09:24:10 * sc1olist (n=sc1olist@dhcp-0013978784-0e-22.client.fas.harvard.edu) has left #berkman
2008-05-15 09:24:29 <davidjoho> damn. I knew I shouldn't have signed up for the AARR.
2008-05-15 09:24:34 * sc1olist (n=sc1olist@dhcp-0013978784-0e-22.client.fas.harvard.edu) has joined #berkman
2008-05-15 09:24:42 <fonchik> JZ renamed the old session Berkmanat10leadup, maybe you're stuck there?
2008-05-15 09:25:04 <guan> "the question is not freedom of speech, the question is freedom after speech" (in fake russian accent)
2008-05-15 09:25:12 <goodell> By the way, there is a Tor browser bundle that runs on USB:
2008-05-15 09:25:13 <goodell> https://www.torproject.org/torbrowser/
2008-05-15 09:25:14 <davidjoho> nope. I'm at http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/questions/Berkmanat10. Is that so wrong?
2008-05-15 09:25:35 <joshuakauffman> @jessamyn thanks!
2008-05-15 09:25:48 <jessamyn> sure, good to hear what you're up to!
2008-05-15 09:26:51 <fonchik> Just tell us your question already, we'll post it
2008-05-15 09:27:35 <sc1olist> This is a very good point.
2008-05-15 09:27:46 <fonchik> oh those damn people, they're so messy.
2008-05-15 09:28:20 <sc1olist> A huge numer of folks in countries that block, under a misshapen nationalism, actually do believe censorship is right. This idea that freedom of information is a human right is indeed a particularly American construction.
2008-05-15 09:28:51 <jessamyn> when I was in Dubai there was very little pushback against the web blocking they dealt with precisely because the elite could circumvent it
2008-05-15 09:29:14 <fonchik> As the country that brought you the PATRIOT act, who are we to call anyone else's nationalism misshapen?
2008-05-15 09:29:21 <msifry> Jeff who? last name please?
2008-05-15 09:30:07 <jessamyn> Jeff ooi
2008-05-15 09:30:10 <devoncopley> it's easy to bypass the "great firewall" of china - but even a small hurdle is high enough that the vast majority of users don't bother
2008-05-15 09:30:25 <jessamyn> it's awesome to be able to google "jeff malaysia" and find him
2008-05-15 09:30:30 * dsilverman (n=zeno@dhcp-0008355076-d1-17.client.fas.harvard.edu) has joined #berkman
2008-05-15 09:30:37 <jessamyn> http://www.jeffooi.com/
2008-05-15 09:30:55 <msifry> thanks jessamyn!!
2008-05-15 09:31:47 <guan> james fallows wrote on the effects of the great firewall in the march atlantic: http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200803/chinese-firewall
2008-05-15 09:32:16 <dwitzel> does anyone know if the great firewall is built on open source? i've always assumed...
2008-05-15 09:32:39 <luisv> cisco, so no
2008-05-15 09:32:48 <sc1olist> @Devon, yes, it is easy, but the deeper issue is one of will. Many of those I talked to in the PRC, I was horrifed to find, are convinced filtering is necessary to "protect" -- and they bring their own interpretation to what kind of protection is served; content, hegemonic cultural influence, whatever. It plugs into a very esoteric and threatening form of nationalistic fervor particular but not unique to Chinese society
2008-05-15 09:32:49 <dr|z3d> devoncopley: given that most network access is provisioned in highly monitored net cafes, it's not so easy to bypass china's firewall.
2008-05-15 09:33:12 <dr|z3d> easy in theory, sure, but not so in practice.
2008-05-15 09:33:59 <fonchik> http://bethkolko.com/
2008-05-15 09:34:00 <devoncopley> drlz3d: good point. users who don't own/control their machines have a much harder time.
2008-05-15 09:34:26 <guan> dr|z3d: a huge number of chinese have internet access at home, and not all net cafes are monitored, despite the government's attempts
2008-05-15 09:34:58 <guan> dr|z3d: most hotel rooms have free internet access behind NAT, and i doubt there are very sophisticated monitoring systems internally at the local 2 star hotel
2008-05-15 09:35:07 <davidjoho> If could post to the question tool (which I still can't), I'd ask whether there are real ways that the Net is worse for democracy? Or are we really asking _how_ good is it for democ?
2008-05-15 09:35:39 * beex (n=fetale@dhcp-0000116219-5b-03.client.law.harvard.edu) has joined #berkman
2008-05-15 09:35:47 <jessamyn> I asked it for you.
2008-05-15 09:36:08 <dr|z3d> essentially, then, there's an economic angle to censorship in china.
2008-05-15 09:36:18 <wseltzer> now it's there twice, so there, censors!
2008-05-15 09:36:28 <devoncopley> sc1olist: it's true that most don't object to the filtering, and the "fervor" you refer to is fed by the gov't-controlled media ... but mr. chomsky here in cambridge would say much the same thing happens in corp-dominated media in the west
2008-05-15 09:36:39 <davidjoho> thank you. thank you.
2008-05-15 09:36:46 * tchatter (n=chatzill@dhcp-0006196316-d6-32.client.law.harvard.edu) has joined #berkman
2008-05-15 09:37:43 <ahoward_> @devoncopley chomsky might say it but traffic shaping doesn't equal traffic censorship, a la Great Firewall
2008-05-15 09:38:06 <sc1olist> @wseltzer, yes, that argument can be made, and it's certainly valid in a structural sense, but it depends on how you parse "deeply-entrenched values", if they're socially constructed or externally-impressed. I am more in favor o the notion that the idea of freedom of access to information as a human right is indeed socially-construced, and that may ultimtaely reinforce a particularistic "American" worldview, but that doe
2008-05-15 09:38:30 * beex has quit ("leaving")
2008-05-15 09:39:24 <wseltzer> @sc1olist, sync problem? not sure what you're responding to
2008-05-15 09:39:35 <jessamyn> youtube video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMl3JFulO0A
2008-05-15 09:39:36 <davidjoho> the fact that the net was created architecturally without a built-in ability to censor at its center builds into the net architecture a preference for Western-style openness of info.
2008-05-15 09:39:39 * beex (n=fetale@dhcp-0000116219-5b-03.client.law.harvard.edu) has joined #berkman
2008-05-15 09:39:42 <beex> <C2><B2>
2008-05-15 09:39:46 <sc1olist> @wseltzer ((apologies, meant to be @devoncople))
2008-05-15 09:39:48 <jessamyn> cuban students criticize the government
2008-05-15 09:39:58 <sc1olist> @davidjoho absolutely.
2008-05-15 09:40:43 <EricaG_> (fyi i modded out the duplicate of david's question that didn't have the comments or votes on it)
2008-05-15 09:40:49 <devoncopley> davidjoho: simultaneously, that architectural philosophy also helps give rise to the fragile "participatory hallucination" nature that JZ was discussing
2008-05-15 09:40:58 <ThomasKriese> link to vid on YouTube: http://youtube.com/watch?v=EMl3JFulO0A
2008-05-15 09:41:34 <ahoward_> @davidjoho Could passing ICANN into international hands potentially move the Net as a whole into more walled gardens with centralized control and filtering at the backbone level?
2008-05-15 09:41:52 <davidjoho> exactly, @devoncopley, which is why the values baked into the architecture can be so easily subverted.
2008-05-15 09:42:16 <davidjoho> @ahoward, that's a great question for (a) @wendy and (b) the question tool.
2008-05-15 09:42:43 <sc1olist> @ahoward -- Yes. And that's terrifying.
2008-05-15 09:42:47 <jessamyn> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-hpi5Fu0p0 current vid
2008-05-15 09:42:50 <sc1olist> But let's do ask it
2008-05-15 09:42:59 <fonchik> The Russians and the Chinese are working on that.
2008-05-15 09:43:04 <jessamyn> Cuban student forced to rescind his statement
2008-05-15 09:43:22 <wseltzer> foreign embassies pass out flash drives like candy
2008-05-15 09:43:38 <sc1olist> Is there still no audio downstairs?
2008-05-15 09:44:01 <EricaG_> we've had audio downstairs for a while now
2008-05-15 09:44:05 <EricaG_> we were out for about 10 min
2008-05-15 09:44:11 <devoncopley> @ahoward_ - we can't have one without the other, though, right? we can't address the fragility of the current architecture without simultaneously damaging the net's ability to "route around" censorship. or can we?
2008-05-15 09:45:10 <ahoward_> a catch 22 for the 21st century. more robust networks could mean less robust communication
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2008-05-15 09:47:33 <jessamyn> Ellen Miller/Micah Sifry http://www.sunlightfoundation.com/ http://www.sunlightfoundation.com/about/bios
2008-05-15 09:47:40 <wseltzer> @ahoward_, not sure ICANN's control is strong enough to be meaningful (thankfully)
2008-05-15 09:47:44 * KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@207.47.11.2.static.nextweb.net) has joined #berkman
2008-05-15 09:47:58 * moot (n=none@dhcp-0012171061-9a-b5.client.student.harvard.edu) has joined #berkman
2008-05-15 09:48:17 <davidjoho> i missed the project she's talking about...
2008-05-15 09:48:29 <wseltzer> Public Markup
2008-05-15 09:48:34 <davidjoho> thx
2008-05-15 09:48:43 <wseltzer> http://publicmarkup.org/
2008-05-15 09:48:44 <jessamyn> http://publicmarkup.org/
2008-05-15 09:48:45 <ahoward_> I'm also not sure that the USMIL will loosen its control of the Internet entirely either... ARPANET lives on, with Carnivore/TIA attached
2008-05-15 09:49:21 <jessamyn> http://fedspending.org/
2008-05-15 09:49:47 <sc1olist> I'd take a CARNIVORE-laden net to an internationally-governed one, begrudgingly. It's all about relative risk.
2008-05-15 09:50:28 <PHB> International government does not mean what you think it means
2008-05-15 09:51:06 <PHB> If you have an international system you will have international government
2008-05-15 09:51:17 <davidjoho> How about a CARNIVORE-bin-laden net?
2008-05-15 09:51:21 <PHB> The question is who the acknowledged stakeholders will be
2008-05-15 09:51:56 <sc1olist> Correction: international governance of any aspect of net protocols/ANN/ &c.
2008-05-15 09:51:57 <PHB> davifjoho, you have that today, the important data is in the public feeds
2008-05-15 09:52:09 <sc1olist> Indeed.
2008-05-15 09:52:30 <PHB> sc1olist why would that be so bad? you can write a spec but you cannot get people to deploy let alone use
2008-05-15 09:53:04 <jordan_p> i predict ronpaul will join bob barr on the libertarian ticket..
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2008-05-15 09:54:00 <jessamyn> Yochai Benkler http://benkler.org/
2008-05-15 09:54:06 <sc1olist> (I'm afraid it's a longer explanation than I can give here, but the short answer is my conviction that that which underlies the internet's true value is the content side of JZ's generativity argument, and that even governments like the UK, let alone Burma, don't have instilled in them a respect for the philosophy of free speech that underpins that fact. Therefore, they shouldn't be given a seat at the table.)
2008-05-15 09:54:14 <devoncopley> paul said some nice things about obama:
2008-05-15 09:54:15 <devoncopley> http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/05/02/paul-not-ready-to-endorse-mccain-likes-obamas-foreign-policy/
2008-05-15 09:54:17 <wseltzer> Benker: "I'm sorry, I didn't do the reading,"; JP "You did the writing"
2008-05-15 09:54:33 <sc1olist> Haha nice line
2008-05-15 09:54:55 <jordan_p> my question is that democracy isn't the right thing. It only works in very limited domains.
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2008-05-15 09:55:42 <devoncopley> @sc1olist: i agree with you, but who is to impose such a normative judgement? and on what basis?
2008-05-15 09:55:42 <Chilmark> well, this is the US and we are at the law school so not so surprising it has democracy as a leading topic
2008-05-15 09:55:43 <jordan_p> its about governance which involves reason
2008-05-15 09:55:58 <dr|z3d> that's a statement, jordan_p.. not a question!
2008-05-15 09:56:13 <jordan_p> 255 characters (:
2008-05-15 09:56:14 <xu_> dr|z3d: zing
2008-05-15 09:56:32 <dr|z3d> democracy is a sham.
2008-05-15 09:56:39 <moot> where's the mike gravel love: http://youtube.com/watch?v=TI6PA4v6dZg
2008-05-15 09:56:44 <sc1olist> Oh, now we're getting deep. haha.
2008-05-15 09:56:59 <dr|z3d> it purports to represent the populace, but only serves to represent limited self interest.
2008-05-15 09:57:06 <davidjoho> we should probably be talking about open discourse or free speech, rather than democracy. No?
2008-05-15 09:57:25 <moot> if ron paul did the soulja boy, maybe he'd be the presumptive nominee by now!
2008-05-15 09:57:28 <devoncopley> yes, rhetorical questions.
2008-05-15 09:57:48 <sc1olist> moot has really hit on something.
2008-05-15 09:58:35 <davidjoho> lord knows, I find mike gravel's deep, probing videos have me rethinking my political commitment
2008-05-15 09:58:48 <fonchik> wendy - speak up on behalf of qustion tool?
2008-05-15 09:58:55 <xu_> yeah, thanks for showing us rock via your blog, davidjoho
2008-05-15 09:59:54 <wseltzer> We've at least got the Q tool up on screen, with DavidW's question
2008-05-15 10:00:24 <wseltzer> and the good dialogue below it
2008-05-15 10:01:15 <guan> who is talking? url?
2008-05-15 10:01:17 <ahoward_> @davidjoho's focus on free speech vs. democracy, I would think the two are rather intertwined. the fourth estate, and now the blogosphere, matters
2008-05-15 10:01:32 <fonchik> ah, ok, I'm downstairs, didn't realize
2008-05-15 10:01:37 <jessamyn> http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/mediaberkman/2007/02/21/rehabilitation-and-restorative-justice-in-jamaicas-prisons/
2008-05-15 10:01:52 <jessamyn> I think it's Kevin Wallen http://www.kevinwallen.com/cms/
2008-05-15 10:02:06 <jessamyn> yes
2008-05-15 10:02:12 <guan> kthx
2008-05-15 10:02:26 <fonchik> @ ahoward free speech is a necessary but not sufficient condition for democracy, no?
2008-05-15 10:02:29 <sc1olist> Someone on Berkman staff please speak up on behalf of the ? tool...?
2008-05-15 10:02:33 <xu_> http://sset.wordpress.com/
2008-05-15 10:02:40 <xu_> that's the project kevin works on
2008-05-15 10:02:41 <davidjoho> @ahoward - definitely intertwined. But the talk of the net's effect on democ leads us to think (perhaps) that it only succeeds if it topples tyrants, whereas its most direct effect is on the ability of people to speak their minds.
2008-05-15 10:02:47 <davidjoho> and speaking minds may, of course, topple tyrants
2008-05-15 10:03:14 <davidjoho> @sc 1 - I did after the last session. I'll mention it again.
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2008-05-15 10:03:30 <sc1olist> @davidjoho great thanks
2008-05-15 10:03:32 <sc1olist> later folks
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2008-05-15 10:03:33 <ahoward_> @fonchik Absolutely agreed. Necessary to preserve but rarely enough to establish initially.
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2008-05-15 10:03:34 <ahoward_> thx all
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2008-05-15 10:03:41 <daithi> lunchtime!
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2008-05-15 10:03:47 <guan> yeah!
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2008-05-15 10:03:48 <beex> everybody go to #lunch
2008-05-15 10:03:49 <wseltzer> breaking for lunch, returning @2
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2008-05-15 10:03:52 <wseltzer> thanks!
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2008-05-15 10:04:11 <wseltzer> qtool was on screen, still hard to get into the speech flow...
2008-05-15 10:04:16 <wseltzer> will keep trying
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2008-05-15 11:03:59 <ilteris_> are we starting?
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2008-05-15 11:04:21 <mooptop> RON PAUL, #berkman
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2008-05-15 11:06:53 <ilteris_> I wish there was audio only stream of the conference.
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2008-05-15 11:15:54 <daithi> Would love to see the playlist for the background music.
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2008-05-15 11:16:22 <TimHwang__> was that feist earlier?
2008-05-15 11:17:09 <daithi> I think so. And there was something English (possibly Kate Nash) that has played twice. Just curious as to if this is someone's Mp3 collection, or if there's a theme...
2008-05-15 11:17:51 <ilteris_> I don't think there's a theme :)
2008-05-15 11:18:24 <daithi> Pity. Could have crowdsourced it. "If the Berkman Center was a song, what would it be"
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2008-05-15 11:19:06 <TimHwang__> heh, i'm still waiting for the cyberlaw-themed playlist
2008-05-15 11:19:15 <TimHwang__> "Every Step You Take" -- ONI
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2008-05-15 11:20:16 <ilteris_> so Yochai Benkler is next right?
2008-05-15 11:20:24 <sc1olist> yeah
2008-05-15 11:20:26 <sc1olist> And Jimbo
2008-05-15 11:21:42 <daithi> "Cooperation" is the theme.
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2008-05-15 11:22:19 <sc1olist> Can someone clear the online ?s list again?
2008-05-15 11:23:02 <msifry> and we'reback from lunch
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2008-05-15 11:23:51 <sc1olist> Satisfaction with the lasagna everyone? 1-10
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2008-05-15 11:26:01 <jessamyn> Jimmy Wales speaking: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmy_Wales http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jimbo_Wales
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2008-05-15 11:26:48 <davidjoho> I've moved to the comfort of the overflow room. It's like upgrading from coach to business class. Plus, the movie is free!
2008-05-15 11:27:03 <sc1olist> The only downside is that your plane crashes every 20 minutes or os.
2008-05-15 11:27:04 <sc1olist> *so
2008-05-15 11:27:04 <daithi> But the heckling may be more difficult ;)
2008-05-15 11:27:17 <guan> we should have a special heckling channel
2008-05-15 11:27:27 <sc1olist> I'm all for that.
2008-05-15 11:27:39 <davidjoho> we could use this if we implement some markup to indicate heckles
2008-05-15 11:27:48 <guan> #heckle
2008-05-15 11:27:55 <ahoward_> <heckle>
2008-05-15 11:27:56 <davidjoho> <heck>So's your old man!</heck>
2008-05-15 11:28:13 <daithi> *rabble rubble hum ho*
2008-05-15 11:28:15 <sc1olist> I don't have time in my heckling for carrot-tags.
2008-05-15 11:28:53 <guan> true re: flamewar
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2008-05-15 11:29:07 <davidjoho> ok, so we can use all caps.
2008-05-15 11:29:09 <msifry> where's the coffee?
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2008-05-15 11:29:13 <davidjoho> SO'S YOUR OLD MAN
2008-05-15 11:29:13 <jessamyn> "most people are horrible and the internet makes them worse, therefore wikipedia is impossible"
2008-05-15 11:29:15 <davidjoho> does that work for you?
2008-05-15 11:29:23 <sc1olist> All gone I think. :(
2008-05-15 11:29:34 <jessamyn> they removed all stimulants and cake.
2008-05-15 11:29:35 <pde_was_stolen> "volume of non spam on usenet is decreasing"
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2008-05-15 11:29:45 <pde_was_stolen> except, reportedly, for alt.binaries
2008-05-15 11:29:48 <ahoward_> oh no! the coffee and cake is gone. sad me.
2008-05-15 11:29:49 <daithi> Jimmy says we're not laughing enough.
2008-05-15 11:29:57 <xu_> where is this steak, jimmy?
2008-05-15 11:30:00 <sc1olist> LAUGH UNCONTROLLABLY --and with no prompting.
2008-05-15 11:30:01 <daithi> Overflow room, how are the giggles with you?
2008-05-15 11:30:01 <jessamyn> can we dim the lights in the Big Room some?
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2008-05-15 11:30:04 <ahoward_> we laughed about knives and cages
2008-05-15 11:30:24 <wseltzer> you need the lights down?
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2008-05-15 11:30:44 <melanieddr> melanieddr
2008-05-15 11:30:58 <sc1olist> nice -- thank you light god
2008-05-15 11:31:04 <daithi> also known as Wendy
2008-05-15 11:31:09 <xu_> question tool is still unwiped
2008-05-15 11:31:13 <jessamyn> omg this is the best magic lantern ever, thanks!
2008-05-15 11:31:17 <sc1olist> bargh
2008-05-15 11:31:51 <sc1olist> @xu_ : any idea who on the irc is in charge of the ?tool?
2008-05-15 11:32:00 <davidjoho> plastic knives on planes just make hijacking a longer and _much_ messier process.
2008-05-15 11:32:03 <xu_> not a clue
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2008-05-15 11:32:17 <goodell> sc1olist: what tool?
2008-05-15 11:32:23 <xu_> http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/questions/berkmanat10
2008-05-15 11:32:33 <goodell> ah, the Question Tool
2008-05-15 11:32:35 <goodell> hmm
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2008-05-15 11:32:38 <sc1olist> (beat me to it, xu.)
2008-05-15 11:32:47 <ilteris_> streaming is incredibly good. thanks for that
2008-05-15 11:32:57 <xu_> What is the definition of "reasonable"?
2008-05-15 11:33:01 <sc1olist> Finally; taking dictation last time was getting a bit tiring.
2008-05-15 11:33:04 <xu_> when he says "we try to present all the reasonable sides"?
2008-05-15 11:33:08 <davidjoho> Breaking news: CA court oks gay marriage.
2008-05-15 11:33:19 <sc1olist> Jimbo does not explain things like that. He's an impressionist
2008-05-15 11:33:22 <xu_> wooo!
2008-05-15 11:33:24 <xu_> hahaha
2008-05-15 11:33:28 <daithi> http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/16/us/15cnd-marriage.html
2008-05-15 11:33:28 <sc1olist> Whoa really?
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2008-05-15 11:33:30 <sc1olist> damn
2008-05-15 11:33:31 <guan> ruling http://www.courtinfo.ca.gov/opinions/documents/S147999.PDF
2008-05-15 11:33:34 <sc1olist> See how long until it's on drudge
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2008-05-15 11:33:43 <sc1olist> Ha it's on
2008-05-15 11:33:51 <sc1olist> No siren though.
2008-05-15 11:33:54 <sc1olist> :(
2008-05-15 11:34:15 <xu_> i have such trouble with this concept of neutrality
2008-05-15 11:34:30 <sc1olist> @xu the problem with this approach, which he gave last time I heard him talk, is that it's hijacked by large numbers or speed in numbers.
2008-05-15 11:34:33 <fonchik> Mary's working on the Q. Tool
2008-05-15 11:34:44 <xu_> yeah
2008-05-15 11:34:50 <ahoward_> so did Foucalt...
2008-05-15 11:35:01 <sc1olist> @ah-d: lol.
2008-05-15 11:35:04 <xu_> this sounds very nesson-esque
2008-05-15 11:35:22 <wseltzer> qtool cleared. Thanks!
2008-05-15 11:35:22 <sc1olist> Nesson must be something of a cult figure around here, eh? He seems like the type to command a good enturouage
2008-05-15 11:35:26 <sc1olist> Thank!!
2008-05-15 11:35:39 <xu_> sc1olist: have you seen the I'm with eon shirts?
2008-05-15 11:35:45 <xu_> they're *amazing*
2008-05-15 11:35:55 <sc1olist> @xu, haha, no, link?
2008-05-15 11:36:04 <ahoward_> just in case you aren't tracking twitter convo: http://twemes.com/berkman
2008-05-15 11:36:12 <xu_> no link, there's just a couple of people wearing them around
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2008-05-15 11:37:09 <sc1olist> @xu I'll look out for 'em.
2008-05-15 11:37:24 <xu_> they're grey
2008-05-15 11:37:28 <davidjoho> I once asked jimbo about neutrality, foucault, etc. He said that he doesn't care that much about french philosophy and that for him, a post is neutral when no one is editing it any more
2008-05-15 11:37:30 <davidjoho> something like that
2008-05-15 11:37:40 <davidjoho> i think that's a really useful operational definiition of "neutrality."
2008-05-15 11:38:02 <daithi> The French philosophers would probably see that as a philosophy in itself, of course. Don't tell him.
2008-05-15 11:38:03 <xu_> haha
2008-05-15 11:38:04 <pde_was_stolen> davidjoho: but correct only while the transaction costs for editing are small
2008-05-15 11:38:07 <sc1olist> @dajo: I think he presumes an equilibrium of information neutrality that frankly doesn't exist.
2008-05-15 11:38:21 <xu_> that's good, but it's also kind of a useful definition for "irrelevant"
2008-05-15 11:38:23 <wseltzer> Mary sporting an I'm with eon t-shirt: http://www.flickr.com/photos/wseltzer/2494641037/
2008-05-15 11:38:25 <davidjoho> sc 1, say more
2008-05-15 11:38:34 <davidjoho> pde, yes, that sounds right
2008-05-15 11:38:39 <pde_was_stolen> (compared to the value of the result)
2008-05-15 11:39:08 <davidjoho> and note that something can be no longer edited because a homogeneous group is doing the editing. So, neutrality here does not presume objectivity.
2008-05-15 11:39:15 <daithi> @wendy: can we buy those t-shirts?
2008-05-15 11:39:49 <sc1olist> @dajo: Well, he presumes that there is a neutral end-state, that once the "collective" has spoken, it will accurately reflect the agreed-upon fundamental truth. He ignores the fact that those editing represent a kind of inherently-biased knowledge aristocracy.
2008-05-15 11:40:05 <wseltzer> @daithi, ask someone at the registration desk
2008-05-15 11:40:06 <sc1olist> Now that may be no different from the "way it was" -- only authors or intellects could get books published.
2008-05-15 11:40:09 <davidjoho> sc 1, i don't think he ignores that at all.
2008-05-15 11:40:18 <sc1olist> But that flies in the face of what Wikipedia, in his explanation, should be.
2008-05-15 11:40:23 <sc1olist> Okay, explain?
2008-05-15 11:40:23 <daithi> thx
2008-05-15 11:40:37 * thinkingSage (n=thinking@dhcp-0014007367-de-86.client.fas.harvard.edu) has joined #berkman
2008-05-15 11:40:51 <davidjoho> in fact, his def of neutrality works within various value groups -- the french article on hstory of flight can be neutral even though it differs from the english (andequally neutral) view
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2008-05-15 11:41:10 <xu_> davidjoho: that's really interesting!
2008-05-15 11:41:25 <devoncopley> those groups are defacto defined by language
2008-05-15 11:41:36 <guan> davidjoho: what if someone is bilingual and tries to merge the two articles?
2008-05-15 11:41:48 <sc1olist> @dajo: ah, that's a good articulation. And as a whole, it works. But article-to-article, it's tyranny of a majority.
2008-05-15 11:41:56 <fonchik> Guan: the person's brain will explode.
2008-05-15 11:41:58 <jessamyn> http://ask.metafilter.com/57644/Warning-this-is-a-bad-site
2008-05-15 11:41:59 <sc1olist> Or the most active.
2008-05-15 11:42:15 * EricaG (n=EricaG@dhcp-0000074987-c9-6e.client.student.harvard.edu) has joined #berkman
2008-05-15 11:42:21 <jessamyn> [thread YB was showing from MeFi]
2008-05-15 11:43:02 <davidjoho> But what isn't a tyranny of the majority? And since the neutral positions are reached through conversation, where's the tyranny? Unless you're defining culture itself as a tyranny.
2008-05-15 11:43:22 <devoncopley> wait, @sc1olist, is it tyranny of a majority or of a privileged elite?
2008-05-15 11:43:32 <devoncopley> both?
2008-05-15 11:43:43 <guan> davidjoho: "culture is tyranny" - should be on a t-shirt
2008-05-15 11:43:43 <xu_> i think it's more the privileged elite
2008-05-15 11:43:53 <xu_> in that they compose of the majority online
2008-05-15 11:43:56 <davidjoho> Guan, i think you probably end up with an uber-article that says, "The French credit X with the invention, while the Americans credit Y." Not very satisfying, albeit informative.
2008-05-15 11:44:08 * daithi (n=daithima@dhcp-0013973127-f5-fc.client.fas.harvard.edu) has left #berkman
2008-05-15 11:44:12 <devoncopley> where's the privilege when anyone can participate? simple literacy as a bar to entry? isn't that a feature not a bug?
2008-05-15 11:44:25 * daithi (n=daithima@dhcp-0013973127-f5-fc.client.fas.harvard.edu) has joined #berkman
2008-05-15 11:44:34 <fonchik> In some circumstances what you get is not the wisdom of the crowd but the lowest common denominator
2008-05-15 11:44:39 <davidjoho> well, devoncopley, anyone can participate if they have a device, a network, skills, opposed thumbs ...
2008-05-15 11:44:40 <sc1olist> @dajo: okay, to be fair, I'm just okay's devil's advocate here, I actually agree with you. BUT, @decon, both. It's tyranny of those with the most access to technology and with the most time (arist) and those most able to sway the dialogue on what constitutes an acceptable contributio (majority)
2008-05-15 11:44:45 <xu_> devoncopley: digital divide?
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2008-05-15 11:45:12 <sc1olist> @xu: Yes. And it's deeper than that. It's about digital literacy. And a deeper desire of individuals--not shared equally--to skew discourse.
2008-05-15 11:45:13 <jessamyn> yeah it's a real illusion that anyone can participate
2008-05-15 11:45:18 <davidjoho> there's no doubt that wikipedia initially heavily reflected geek culture. And it still does to some degree.
2008-05-15 11:45:20 <sc1olist> Not necessarily negatively. But skew nonetheless.
2008-05-15 11:45:22 <jessamyn> more and more people have access but not know-how
2008-05-15 11:45:25 <xu_> yes, absolutely it's deeper than that
2008-05-15 11:45:28 <xu_> but at a very basic level
2008-05-15 11:45:32 <xu_> as was brought up earlier
2008-05-15 11:45:33 <daithi> interesting element on the elite point (david/devon/etc discussing) - http://www.calacanis.com/2007/02/20/technological-obscurification-three-ways-wikipedia-keeps-99-of/ - don't really agree with it but fun to read
2008-05-15 11:45:36 <devoncopley> @davidjoho: that is a limitation of the medium not of wikipedia
2008-05-15 11:45:42 <Frank_Paynter> not receiving audio on live feed
2008-05-15 11:45:42 <xu_> a place like jamaica doesn't have wide-spread internet access
2008-05-15 11:45:49 <xu_> which is why the jamaican articles are crap on wikipedia
2008-05-15 11:45:55 <sc1olist> @dajo: Sure it does: most of wikipedia is, after all, largely one series of embedded, hidden references to Naruto.
2008-05-15 11:45:58 <jessamyn> neither does a place like Vermont in many ways, same thing
2008-05-15 11:46:07 <sc1olist> @xu True, true.
2008-05-15 11:46:07 <xu_> absolutely, jessamyn
2008-05-15 11:46:10 <davidjoho> which is why the article on maple syrup sucks.
2008-05-15 11:46:13 <xu_> hahaha
2008-05-15 11:46:14 * madamelevy is now known as treeshapiro
2008-05-15 11:46:17 <moot__> kage bunshin no jutsu
2008-05-15 11:46:18 <xu_> davidjoho: zing
2008-05-15 11:46:19 <sc1olist> why is he yelling?
2008-05-15 11:46:23 <davidjoho> I shoud hae put in the <heck> tags.
2008-05-15 11:46:27 <daithi> becuase you can MAKE MONEY
2008-05-15 11:46:39 <jessamyn> which is why there is an ihop in every state but VT
2008-05-15 11:46:44 <xu_> is yochai going to put these slides online?
2008-05-15 11:46:53 <sc1olist> Oh! I like making money...I should probably be paying more attention then.
2008-05-15 11:47:00 <davidjoho> i blogged last night about zenzuu, a social network/pyramid scheme.
2008-05-15 11:47:01 <devoncopley> thanks for the link @daithi - i think the bias here is more to individuals who care enough about a topic to jump the hurdles
2008-05-15 11:47:02 <joshuakauffman> 17695 unread emails
2008-05-15 11:47:10 <devoncopley> tyranny of the interested
2008-05-15 11:47:13 <sc1olist> LOL
2008-05-15 11:47:16 <davidjoho> :)
2008-05-15 11:47:20 <TimHwang__> everyone on the internet wants to talk to YB
2008-05-15 11:47:24 <sc1olist> Yochai needs to readz him some email.
2008-05-15 11:47:26 <joshuakauffman> (Benkler's inbox)
2008-05-15 11:47:44 <msifry> davidjoho: i loved that post...it reminded me of all those newspaper columns where the foreign correspondent talks to his cabdriver and then "reports"
2008-05-15 11:48:08 <devoncopley> @davidjoho: link?
2008-05-15 11:48:30 <daithi> http://www.hyperorg.com/blogger/2008/05/14/zenzuu-the-social-network-with-a-one-track-mind/
2008-05-15 11:48:41 <daithi> best bit : "I’m not sure because it’s in a font designed by and for squirrels"
2008-05-15 11:48:48 <davidjoho> msifry, thanks, but i'm too much of a coward to have told you more about the cab driver who was flogging "his" site, telling me that he's sure they'll have a million users by August, but, no he's never personally visited facebook or myspace.
2008-05-15 11:48:48 * jcallina (n=chatzill@dhcp-0000078918-cd-8a.client.student.harvard.edu) has joined #berkman
2008-05-15 11:49:38 <davidjoho> when you're not using shared bandwidth, you should watch the video I linked to. It is the definition of "shady"
2008-05-15 11:50:04 * vicki has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.82.1 [Firefox 1.0.3/20050414]")
2008-05-15 11:50:30 <ahoward_> @davidjoho When are we NOT using shared bandwidth? </snark>
2008-05-15 11:50:31 * Helmi has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.82.1 [Firefox 2.0.0.14/2008040413]")
2008-05-15 11:50:39 <EricaG> davidjoho no, i'm the real slim shady ;)
2008-05-15 11:50:56 <davidjoho> I am Spartacus.
2008-05-15 11:51:08 <ahoward_> I am Iron Man?
2008-05-15 11:51:09 <jcallina> ericag, please standup, please stand up
2008-05-15 11:51:27 <davewiner> how about the wiki-stock-market page?
2008-05-15 11:51:38 <davewiner> let's say I own APPL stock
2008-05-15 11:51:42 <davewiner> and the price went down
2008-05-15 11:51:47 <davewiner> but I'd rather have it go up
2008-05-15 11:51:56 <davewiner> just edit the stock page to make it work the way I want to
2008-05-15 11:52:01 <davewiner> much better solution!
2008-05-15 11:52:11 <davewiner> :-)
2008-05-15 11:52:22 <davewiner> if you flame me
2008-05-15 11:52:22 <msifry> i print my own currency, same idea
2008-05-15 11:52:30 <davewiner> we'll have to ban you
2008-05-15 11:52:32 <davewiner> so sorry
2008-05-15 11:52:33 <msifry> faster ROI
2008-05-15 11:52:33 <davewiner> :-(
2008-05-15 11:52:46 <davewiner> many advantages!!
2008-05-15 11:52:47 <ahoward_> engadget works better, Dave. your edit on Wikipedia would get taken down right away and would be relatively low traffic
2008-05-15 11:52:56 <ahoward_> now, scripting.net...
2008-05-15 11:53:21 <xu_> whoa, andrew keen is here?
2008-05-15 11:53:22 <davewiner> ahoward, sorry we'd have to ban you for flaming people
2008-05-15 11:53:27 * jwonderlich has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.82.1 [Firefox 2.0.0.14/2008040413]")
2008-05-15 11:53:38 <guan> game theory has very specific predictions? realistic games have gazillions of equilibria...
2008-05-15 11:53:57 <treeshapiro> where are these stats coming from?
2008-05-15 11:54:15 <daithi> we have to get these slides on the web
2008-05-15 11:54:22 <EricaG> keen is here? or just taking that from the Q on the Q tool?
2008-05-15 11:54:27 <msifry> is all this research about the commons happening now because the internet has shown that it's viable, or is the internet making the research itself viable?
2008-05-15 11:54:40 <sc1olist> Hey, did you guys know JZ is going to be on Colbert in a couple of weeks?
2008-05-15 11:54:56 <jessamyn> I want to see JZ and JayZ on Clobert
2008-05-15 11:54:57 <xu_> i don't know
2008-05-15 11:54:57 <xu_> yeah, taking it from the Q
2008-05-15 11:54:57 <xu_> really?
2008-05-15 11:55:02 <davewiner> benkler speaks very quickl
2008-05-15 11:55:04 <sc1olist> Yeah.
2008-05-15 11:55:05 <xu_> i just want to see JZ and Jay Z anywhere
2008-05-15 11:55:18 <xu_> i missed my Henry Jenkins / Leeroy Jenkins photo op at ROFLCon =(
2008-05-15 11:55:22 <EricaG> They could do a rap together on the future of the net :D
2008-05-15 11:55:27 <davewiner> punishment and reward
2008-05-15 11:55:29 <treeshapiro> i missed the slick rick gig
2008-05-15 11:55:32 <davewiner> absolutely central
2008-05-15 11:55:36 <xu_> i got 99 problems, generativity ain't one
2008-05-15 11:55:37 <davewiner> crowding out
2008-05-15 11:55:42 * beth_ (n=chatzill@dhcp-0003718859-0b-04.client.student.harvard.edu) has joined #berkman
2008-05-15 11:55:43 <sc1olist> @xu Ha! At one point earlier someone referred to him as J-Z, but put the stress on it wrong, and I certainly thought they were referring to Jay-Z for a moment.
2008-05-15 11:55:53 <sc1olist> @xu lol
2008-05-15 11:55:55 * Shashwat has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.82.1 [Firefox 2.0.0.14/2008040413]")
2008-05-15 11:55:57 <msifry> there's no way to speak fast on IRC
2008-05-15 11:56:03 <daithi> yes
2008-05-15 11:56:05 <daithi> there
2008-05-15 11:56:06 <daithi> is
2008-05-15 11:56:07 <jessamyn> what's the ROLFcon B@10 overlap?
2008-05-15 11:56:26 <sc1olist> they're *everywhere*. Sleeper cells of 'em in the audience.
2008-05-15 11:56:27 <davewiner> does benkler ever finish a sentence?
2008-05-15 11:56:34 <treeshapiro> lost sound here
2008-05-15 11:56:39 <msifry> How to design for cooperation. That's the big question.
2008-05-15 11:56:41 <daithi> Watching Benkler's slides is like watching a movie in fast forward
2008-05-15 11:56:45 <msifry> Benkler in 10 seconds.
2008-05-15 11:56:49 <xu_> yeah
2008-05-15 11:56:53 <davewiner> whew
2008-05-15 11:56:54 <TimHwang__> gah, sc1olist, was trying to stay incognito
2008-05-15 11:57:01 <davewiner> my head is spinning
2008-05-15 11:57:04 <sc1olist> You didn't have to out yourself, sir.
2008-05-15 11:57:16 <devoncopley> oof. at one point i thought we'd have some bullet points but it turned into moving circles and lines and bullets all over the page
2008-05-15 11:57:19 <alexleavitt> key point: what's NOT the overlap from ROFLCon in Berk10: not enough young people who will be the main demographic in the 'future of the internet'
2008-05-15 11:57:25 <devoncopley> not your typical powerpoint
2008-05-15 11:57:26 <sc1olist> Thankfully, TIA being run on us as we speak, so the powers that be already knew.
2008-05-15 11:57:29 <davewiner> he's asking jason calacanis's question
2008-05-15 11:57:34 <davewiner> why no ads jimbo?
2008-05-15 11:57:38 <xu_> sc1olist: thanks! sleeper cell makes us sound so badass
2008-05-15 11:57:50 <xu_> yeah, the demographic of b@10 is like ROFLCon + 20 years
2008-05-15 11:57:51 <davewiner> jimbo's head is spinning too?
2008-05-15 11:57:52 <sc1olist> @xu: Yeah, well, I'm nothing if not good PR for you guys. Wht?
2008-05-15 11:58:06 <sc1olist> Jimbo seems to have an unfortunate philosophy of collar-mixing.
2008-05-15 11:58:11 <treeshapiro> jimbo spins
2008-05-15 11:58:12 <davewiner> jimbo: I don't understand the question so I'll answer another one
2008-05-15 11:58:28 <moot__> jimbo: jimbo
2008-05-15 11:58:32 <davewiner> is docsearls here??
2008-05-15 11:58:32 <jessamyn> I don't think of wikipedians as primarily fun-seeking
2008-05-15 11:58:33 <ahoward_> double collars are very preppy, @sc1. think hahvahd
2008-05-15 11:58:34 <goodell> sc1olist: collar-mixing?
2008-05-15 11:58:35 <treeshapiro> like a record baby
2008-05-15 11:58:39 <davewiner> hey doc -- WAKE UP!
2008-05-15 11:58:46 <sc1olist> Popped chinese collar of a blazer, then the popped yellow polo. Major faux pas.
2008-05-15 11:58:57 <davewiner> :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-)
2008-05-15 11:59:11 <davewiner> business buzzword
2008-05-15 11:59:17 <jessamyn> jimbo: I find corwdsourcing offensive and annoying
2008-05-15 11:59:18 <sc1olist> @ahoward, no, I think Georgetown more.
2008-05-15 11:59:18 <goodell> "crowdsourcing"
2008-05-15 11:59:19 <xu_> jimbo finds the term "crowdsourcing" offensive?
2008-05-15 11:59:20 <treeshapiro> is doc wearing tie dye?
2008-05-15 11:59:20 <davewiner> he doesn't like crowdsourcing (I don't either)
2008-05-15 11:59:22 <xu_> oh i see
2008-05-15 11:59:29 <davewiner> it's an ugly word
2008-05-15 11:59:32 <pde_was_stolen> except Gracenote
2008-05-15 11:59:33 <treeshapiro> trick the public
2008-05-15 11:59:35 <devoncopley> gracenote knew exactly what they were doing
2008-05-15 11:59:39 <devoncopley> hah you beat me
2008-05-15 11:59:41 <sc1olist> It can be said with such wonderful pejorativeness though.
2008-05-15 11:59:42 <jessamyn> "they are missing something very fundamental about the business"
2008-05-15 12:00:04 <guan> "user generated content" -- i haven't actually heard that recently
2008-05-15 12:00:10 <davewiner> wiki bowling alley
2008-05-15 12:00:12 <pde_was_stolen> UGC
2008-05-15 12:00:17 <davewiner> you can use my ball anytime
2008-05-15 12:00:20 <treeshapiro> yeah lots of money in bowling
2008-05-15 12:00:22 <sc1olist> I want to bowl with Jimbo.
2008-05-15 12:00:30 <sc1olist> I bet he's really badass at it. Where's he from again? Kansas?
2008-05-15 12:00:35 <guan> bowl with jimbo and obama
2008-05-15 12:00:38 <davewiner> louisiana
2008-05-15 12:00:41 <moot__> jimbowling
2008-05-15 12:00:43 <treeshapiro> this bowling alley analogy is NICE!
2008-05-15 12:00:44 <sc1olist> Close enough. Major bowling state.
2008-05-15 12:00:44 <msifry> the community scores each frame
2008-05-15 12:00:46 * jwonderlich (n=chatzill@dhcp-0013978908-77-0b.client.fas.harvard.edu) has joined #berkman
2008-05-15 12:00:48 <sc1olist> Jimbowling
2008-05-15 12:00:50 <sc1olist> win.
2008-05-15 12:01:00 <treeshapiro> i bet he's got some nice balls
2008-05-15 12:01:10 <davewiner> butt-sniffin at the dog park http://www.flickr.com/photos/scriptingnews/2493498806/
2008-05-15 12:01:41 <davewiner> Welcome to PuppyLand! http://www.flickr.com/photos/scriptingnews/2492848911/
2008-05-15 12:01:47 <ilteris_> benkler was surprised to hear about balls I guess :)
2008-05-15 12:01:55 <sc1olist> @davew: are those sfw?
2008-05-15 12:02:01 <Frank_Paynter> he's more into nice pins
2008-05-15 12:02:01 <davewiner> yes
2008-05-15 12:02:16 <sc1olist> OR are you just trying to get me to pull up some row-behind-me-scandalizing content?
2008-05-15 12:02:22 <sc1olist> I'd understand if you were.
2008-05-15 12:02:26 <davewiner> heh
2008-05-15 12:02:37 <davewiner> i could post some scandalous butt-sniffin pics
2008-05-15 12:02:40 <treeshapiro> and like the bowling shoe rentals are like the ads
2008-05-15 12:02:41 <davewiner> but these are work safe
2008-05-15 12:02:43 <jessamyn> I clicked them row behind me be damned
2008-05-15 12:02:50 <guan> as long as it's not goatse...
2008-05-15 12:03:05 <treeshapiro> ORLY?
2008-05-15 12:03:09 <ahoward_> yes. no goat-rolling please
2008-05-15 12:03:09 <sc1olist> Oh, I'm doing a break-out session on goatse.
2008-05-15 12:03:22 <sc1olist> long live the un-conference.
2008-05-15 12:03:25 <moot__> we can bring some roflcondoms
2008-05-15 12:03:29 <Frank_Paynter> jimbo doesn't get myspace
2008-05-15 12:03:29 <treeshapiro> charitable for whom?
2008-05-15 12:03:30 <moot__> it will be a par-tay
2008-05-15 12:03:40 <davewiner> i wish they'd open the window
2008-05-15 12:03:43 <treeshapiro> i go bowling
2008-05-15 12:03:48 <davewiner> someone is farting in the overflow room
2008-05-15 12:03:59 <Frank_Paynter> but you wear your own shoes
2008-05-15 12:04:01 <treeshapiro> church!!!!!?????
2008-05-15 12:04:10 * PHB (n=hallam@dhcp-0013978935-0f-2f.client.fas.harvard.edu) has joined #berkman
2008-05-15 12:04:18 <treeshapiro> our lady of the bowling alley
2008-05-15 12:04:24 <Frank_Paynter> nice pins
2008-05-15 12:04:33 <jessamyn> church has some interesting mutual aid associations but it's a strange choice imo
2008-05-15 12:04:49 <treeshapiro> all hail the crying pin
2008-05-15 12:05:02 <sc1olist> I appreciate how "7 years ago" is considered truly agéd, ancient history in this conference.
2008-05-15 12:05:04 * marc10 has quit ("Computer goes to sleep!")
2008-05-15 12:05:16 <docsearls> sorry, I did nod off for a bit. been up since 4am, working on my Publius piece, which needs to be done this afternoon.
2008-05-15 12:05:18 * Deaner (n=Deaner@dhcp-0000019431-ea-c2.client.fas.harvard.edu) has joined #berkman
2008-05-15 12:05:30 <treeshapiro> please tell us
2008-05-15 12:05:30 <docsearls> Sometimes "heads down" goes too far.
2008-05-15 12:05:36 <moot__> Hello Deaner, welcome to the chat.
2008-05-15 12:05:38 * moot__ welcomes.
2008-05-15 12:05:39 <fonchik> As if there were something wrong with being cliquish
2008-05-15 12:05:40 <treeshapiro> oh?
2008-05-15 12:05:41 <davewiner> President Bush suggested Thursday that Sen. Barack Obama and other Democrats are in favor of “appeasement” of terrorists in the same way U.S. leaders appeased Nazis in the run-up to World War II.
2008-05-15 12:05:45 <Frank_Paynter> bumped forehead
2008-05-15 12:05:48 * ilteris_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
2008-05-15 12:05:57 <treeshapiro> wiki funded bridge jumpers
2008-05-15 12:06:00 <sc1olist> @davewiner nothing new. That's been the R line for years.
2008-05-15 12:06:06 * moot__ is now known as WelcomeBot
2008-05-15 12:06:16 <sc1olist> It does demonstrate a wonderful desperation on their part though.
2008-05-15 12:06:23 <treeshapiro> like bowling teams
2008-05-15 12:06:25 * WelcomeBot is now known as _WelcomeBot_
2008-05-15 12:06:32 <sc1olist> It's a very evocative intellectual tic.
2008-05-15 12:06:34 * ilteris_ (n=ilteris@216.223.194.250) has joined #berkman
2008-05-15 12:06:35 <sc1olist> moot___ wtf are you up to?
2008-05-15 12:06:36 <davewiner> I love the headline of this article. http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/attytood/President_Bush_committed_treason_today.html
2008-05-15 12:06:43 * EricaG waves at Frank_Paynter are you here in person?
2008-05-15 12:06:59 <Frank_Paynter> nope, laptop on the boat
2008-05-15 12:07:02 <docsearls> may we speak of "appeasement" in respect to those who wish to stuff the Internet genie insie the pre-1984 bottle?
2008-05-15 12:07:13 <PHB> @davewiner so will Bush dennounce the GOP presidential candidate who has for years supported the terrorist organization that tried to murder my own family? I think not.
2008-05-15 12:07:14 <docsearls> great headline
2008-05-15 12:07:24 <msifry> thanks for that breaking news, davewiner
2008-05-15 12:07:26 * jordan_p_ (n=chatzill@dhcp-0000036995-17-ec.client.student.harvard.edu) has joined #berkman
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2008-05-15 12:07:32 <treeshapiro> News Alert: California Supreme Court Overturns Gay Marriage Ban
2008-05-15 12:07:44 <docsearls> back to writing longform....
2008-05-15 12:08:01 <sc1olist> later doc
2008-05-15 12:08:13 <_WelcomeBot_> hooary hopefully virginia's is next to go
2008-05-15 12:08:23 <treeshapiro> "The ruling paves the way for California to become the second
2008-05-15 12:08:24 <treeshapiro> state where gay men and lesbians can marry." laughing.
2008-05-15 12:09:14 * amar (n=chatzill@dhcp-0000072912-91-1a.client.fas.harvard.edu) has joined #berkman
2008-05-15 12:09:27 <PHB> "Sen. Kerry blasts President Bush's "shameless" act of launching a domestic political attack in front of a foreign parliament."
2008-05-15 12:09:41 <sc1olist> Biden called it, quote, "total bullshit"
2008-05-15 12:09:57 <sc1olist> Hate to bring this back, but that last point was a good one,
2008-05-15 12:10:10 <davewiner> Wales was caught editing his own bio on Wikipedia
2008-05-15 12:10:11 * tchatter (n=chatzill@140.247.252.19) has joined #berkman
2008-05-15 12:10:13 <jessamyn> the good faith one?
2008-05-15 12:10:14 * chrisc_ (n=chatzill@140.247.241.82) has joined #berkman
2008-05-15 12:10:31 <goodell> Aw. I bet that he is the most knowledgable expert on Jimmy Wales
2008-05-15 12:10:37 <sc1olist> No the "don't have to be an expert to contribute" one. Not new, but powerful.
2008-05-15 12:10:42 <jessamyn> I've edited my own bio, it happens
2008-05-15 12:12:13 <wseltzer> good to hear that the number of lawsuits against wikipedia is very small
2008-05-15 12:12:16 * Corinna_ (n=chatzill@c-76-24-18-117.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) has joined #berkman
2008-05-15 12:12:35 <daithi> Anyone familiar with the Italian case that was just mentioned?
2008-05-15 12:12:51 <goodell> We are the community, right?
2008-05-15 12:13:02 <jessamyn> http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/03/01/1426201&from=rss
2008-05-15 12:13:12 <sc1olist> Thanks, jess
2008-05-15 12:13:17 <PHB> OK so what when someone puts libellous information into their own article under a false name so that they can sue? MIT has defended a case of that type already
2008-05-15 12:13:17 <daithi> great thanks
2008-05-15 12:13:27 <Frank_Paynter> rotten webcast audio is best argument for QoS
2008-05-15 12:13:33 <PHB> [not on Wikipedia, USENET]
2008-05-15 12:13:37 <jessamyn> librarians represent! you're welcome.
2008-05-15 12:14:46 <jessamyn> would *love* to know how many people in this room [either room] have Wikipedia pages about them....
2008-05-15 12:15:17 <davidjoho> yes, and how many of us have the shame of stubs?
2008-05-15 12:15:25 <wseltzer> Is this his argument against putting everything into wikipedia: if it's just a niche, there might not be critical mass to NPV it
2008-05-15 12:15:37 <sc1olist> @jess I've personally looked up about 8 in this room already -- folks asking ?s etc.
2008-05-15 12:15:44 <davidjoho> T-shirt idea: "Look me up in Wikipedia" on the front. "I'm a stub" on the back.
2008-05-15 12:15:52 <wseltzer> jessamyn: sounds like a job for perlscripts!
2008-05-15 12:16:13 <sc1olist> @davidjo: awesome.
2008-05-15 12:16:13 <davidjoho> doesn't jimbo tend toward the inclusionist side in the perpetual wikipedia debate?
2008-05-15 12:16:14 <jessamyn> can someone get right on that?
2008-05-15 12:16:27 <sc1olist> Doing it as we speak
2008-05-15 12:16:29 <sc1olist> give me 5 mins
2008-05-15 12:16:29 <msifry> davidjoho this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Weinberger doesn't look like a stub
2008-05-15 12:16:44 <davidjoho> I've been promoted!
2008-05-15 12:16:50 <jessamyn> davidjoho, do you have a better photo? I'll add it if you email it to me.
2008-05-15 12:17:03 <msifry> i'm impressed to learn that you are a "professional speaker"
2008-05-15 12:17:18 <guan> star wars kid for governor!
2008-05-15 12:17:26 <davidjoho> Ego rising. Rising. Narcissism alert: http://www.hyperorg.com/photos.html
2008-05-15 12:17:43 <daithi> The requested URL /photos.html was not found on this server.
2008-05-15 12:18:03 <davidjoho> Broken url. Ego tumbles. Black mood looms.
2008-05-15 12:18:15 <davidjoho> http://www.hyperorg.com/speaker/photos.html
2008-05-15 12:18:17 <daithi> LOL.
2008-05-15 12:18:45 <jessamyn> @davidjoho if these are free-licensed, I'll replace what's there.
2008-05-15 12:18:47 <davidjoho> yes, msifry, and as you can tell from my comments on this very forum, i charge by the word.
2008-05-15 12:18:58 <daithi> like all good lawyers
2008-05-15 12:18:59 <TimHwang__> http://www.flickr.com/photos/veeliam/211439627/
2008-05-15 12:19:02 * treeshapiro_ (n=chatzill@77.201.85.75) has joined #berkman
2008-05-15 12:19:02 <davidjoho> yes, they're free licensed. At least they are now that you mention it.
2008-05-15 12:19:25 <davidjoho> Also, can you improve my biceps? Thanks.
2008-05-15 12:20:01 <ilteris_> lol
2008-05-15 12:20:51 * fetale (n=fetale@dhcp-0000116219-5b-03.client.law.harvard.edu) has joined #berkman
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2008-05-15 12:21:45 <Frank_Paynter> a few years ago esthr tried to charge me a dime for an elevator ride
2008-05-15 12:21:48 <EricaG> ah Livejournal.
2008-05-15 12:21:48 * jeckman (n=jeckman@dhcp-0013973125-ae-3c.client.fas.harvard.edu) has joined #berkman
2008-05-15 12:21:53 * zamiang (n=bmoore@68.236.98.2) has joined #berkman
2008-05-15 12:22:02 <dwitzel> Frank, did you pay?
2008-05-15 12:22:18 <Frank_Paynter> no... but th efee for service model was intriguing
2008-05-15 12:22:20 <davidjoho> esther's brain: http://flickr.com/photos/edyson/2493849930/
2008-05-15 12:22:50 <msifry> that new book "Predictable Irrationality" has a whole section on how people's behavior changes once you bring money into the euation
2008-05-15 12:22:53 <msifry> equation
2008-05-15 12:22:58 <EricaG> that's an awesome story
2008-05-15 12:23:11 <guan> davidjoho: http://senduit.com/c2b0e8
2008-05-15 12:23:16 <dwitzel> if she asked for 5 cents the next time, would you eventually stop riding elevators?
2008-05-15 12:23:27 <msifry> oops, Predictably Irrational: http://web.mit.edu/ariely/www/MIT/
2008-05-15 12:23:39 <Frank_Paynter> well, I only had a nickel then so I had to get off at before my floor
2008-05-15 12:23:39 <msifry> i need caffeine
2008-05-15 12:23:54 <jake> hi Tree Shapiro I'm Jake Shapiro but wish I was something more like Tree
2008-05-15 12:24:00 <wseltzer> Thanks msifry
2008-05-15 12:24:00 <dwitzel> charlie on the MBTA
2008-05-15 12:24:06 <treeshapiro_> were you buffaloed?
2008-05-15 12:24:25 <Frank_Paynter> more a jeffersonian thing
2008-05-15 12:24:28 <devoncopley> there's a great study about a day care center: when they instituted a late fee for picking up your kids late, lateness actually *increased* ... the social stigma was more powerful than the monetary penalty; the penalty was like an indulgence and people gladly paid to sin
2008-05-15 12:24:52 <TimHwang__> devoncopley
2008-05-15 12:24:55 <treeshapiro_> is that jp?
2008-05-15 12:24:57 <TimHwang__> that's awesome -- do you have a link?
2008-05-15 12:24:58 <Frank_Paynter> good story devon
2008-05-15 12:25:17 <devoncopley> looking
2008-05-15 12:25:20 <msifry> if my mother inlaw brings a potroast to my seder, and afterwards I offer to pay her, it kinda ruins the social contract
2008-05-15 12:25:27 <davidjoho> Wealth of Networks has good stuff on the effect of the introduction of $
2008-05-15 12:25:31 <daithi> devon, I think it's in freakonomics
2008-05-15 12:25:44 * hec has quit ("leaving")
2008-05-15 12:25:52 <devoncopley> http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:KuTWEOCng04J:www.rady.ucsd.edu/faculty/directory/gneezy/docs/fine.pdf+day+care+late+fee+study+haifa&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=3&gl=us&client=firefox-a
2008-05-15 12:26:08 <msifry> devon, that's also discussed in Predictably Irrational
2008-05-15 12:26:17 <davidjoho> guan, the senduit has punked out :(
2008-05-15 12:26:17 <devoncopley> http://www.rady.ucsd.edu/faculty/directory/gneezy/docs/fine.pdf
2008-05-15 12:26:18 <wseltzer> YB: ease of undoing damage creates the ability to take risks, extend trust
2008-05-15 12:26:26 * treeshapiro has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
2008-05-15 12:26:53 <guan> davidjoho: mnm, http://unicast.org/download/joho.jpg
2008-05-15 12:27:15 <davidjoho> guan, how on earth did you guess? That is eerie!
2008-05-15 12:27:17 <daithi> oi!
2008-05-15 12:27:25 <daithi> i'll scare the people behind me...
2008-05-15 12:27:31 <guan> nsfw?
2008-05-15 12:27:32 <daithi> i mean, make them jealous
2008-05-15 12:27:33 <daithi> whatever
2008-05-15 12:27:40 * cmaclay (n=chatzill@dhcp-0000101413-98-34.client.law.harvard.edu) has joined #berkman
2008-05-15 12:28:39 <ahoward_> does anyone think it's appropriate to ask Jimmy about pedophilia, given recent news about staff & content staying up?
2008-05-15 12:28:54 <ahoward_> not him, per se -- just about openness and standards for included info
2008-05-15 12:28:57 * geeta (n=chatzill@dhcp-0014014353-a0-e3.client.fas.harvard.edu) has joined #berkman
2008-05-15 12:29:24 <wseltzer> Top-rated question in the qtool: "Why are you wearing yellow?"
2008-05-15 12:29:42 <treeshapiro_> hillary yellow
2008-05-15 12:29:53 * how2 (n=howardg@68.236.98.2) has joined #berkman
2008-05-15 12:29:55 <beex> canary yellow
2008-05-15 12:29:55 <treeshapiro_> peni
2008-05-15 12:29:59 <dwitzel> isn't that peni
2008-05-15 12:30:05 <daithi> After that 'relax, it's Wikipedia' answer : "they call him mellow yellow, quite rightly" (add to the playlist)
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2008-05-15 12:30:14 <dwitzel> donovan!
2008-05-15 12:30:25 <davidjoho> what exactly, then, would be one less than one-too-many giant penises?
2008-05-15 12:30:28 <treeshapiro_> quite right ahhhh
2008-05-15 12:30:47 <wseltzer> davidjoho: zero?
2008-05-15 12:30:50 <ilteris_> first time I am watching benkler and he kind of dissapointed me I don't know why.
2008-05-15 12:30:51 <jessamyn> E lec tri cal BANANA
2008-05-15 12:30:54 <treeshapiro_> he came in through the bathroom window
2008-05-15 12:31:00 <guan> well, "Giant penis" might be the featured article one day
2008-05-15 12:31:12 <treeshapiro_> first there was a mountain
2008-05-15 12:31:17 <ahoward_> I believe the Dodge Viper has been on the front page...
2008-05-15 12:31:25 <how2> jimbo is a bully he calls people directly and threatens them if he feels you are not working in his interest
2008-05-15 12:31:40 <treeshapiro_> cons
2008-05-15 12:31:44 <geeta> hey! i'm geeta. i just joined the irc channel. i know some of you, but not all
2008-05-15 12:31:56 <xu__> hi geeta, it's christina from c4fcm
2008-05-15 12:31:58 <sc1olist> Hey geeta
2008-05-15 12:32:00 <geeta> hey christina
2008-05-15 12:32:05 <xu__> are you here?
2008-05-15 12:32:08 <geeta> yup!
2008-05-15 12:32:12 <xu__> cool!
2008-05-15 12:32:14 <sc1olist> @how2 source?
2008-05-15 12:32:18 <beex> hey geeta, I see you in the overflow
2008-05-15 12:32:30 <how2> user and someone he has called and bullied
2008-05-15 12:32:42 <TimHwang__> also wickerpedia
2008-05-15 12:32:51 <how2> but i am not the only one this has happened to
2008-05-15 12:32:56 <sc1olist> @how2 Hrm, what would actually rile him enough for that? As in, someone editing his personal page, o